Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?

Dave Noll · 10-28-2021, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

With this in mind, would the 2-barrel version of an engine likely gain more from a 3-speed conversion, than for the 4-barrel version of that engine ?

When I got a gearset from ProTrans I talked to the owner of the company. I got a set for my 2bbl Cleveland Cougar's C4. He told me how to drive the car with the new set Then told me that there were WAY faster cars than my "N" stocker that were running fast with a Steeper 1st & 2nd than what I had just bought. He didn't give me #'s. For mine I made more than 1 change when I installed the gearset but my car is quicker now.

oldskool · 10-28-2021, 10:38 PM

"...in 2010 i believe...then within a year nhra opened the flood gates and allowed any GM trans..."

So, 2-speed GM cars have been able to run a 3-speed now for just over 10 years.

Anybody here disagree with that ?

So, for you guys who race a full schedule, including nat events & div races, AND are familiar with LOTS of Stocker combos, do any of ya'll know of any Buick, Olds, or Pontiac models, which came with the 2-speed Super Turbine 300(IIRC, Olds called it Jet-a-Way), which have been actively racing in Stock, in the past 10 years ?

For you older guys, who were running a full schedule back in the late '60's or at least by the mid '70's, what year was the last time you saw, or knew of, a SERIOUS '64-'66 GTO Stocker, running an auto trans ?

The reason I ask, besides just my being a Pontiac Freek, is because the 2-speed BOP trans I mentioned is the only auto trans that was legal for those cars. In the mid '60's, there were lots of 4-speed GTO Stockers, especially the Tri-Power models.

But, I have only run across 1 pic of a '64-'66 auto trans Stocker. It was a '64 model, named "Lil 2 Speed". From the markings, looks like it was running either AHRA or IHRA.

A few of the big Pontiac dealers ran some pretty quick 4-speed GTO's, especially the Tri-Power '66 models. But, if I've seen one running an auto, I don't remember it. I just ASSUME this is because of the 2-speed.

Apparently, those 2-speeds could be built strong enuff for Stock Elim duty. My trans guy said he could easily build one that would hold up behind my 455 bracket engine. And, I think the TH350/400 converters will work in the non-lock-up 2-speeds.

Hey, I haven't even ran across any info indicating that a competitive '64-'66 GTO, of any kind, ran Stock in the '70's & later. I suppose that most Pontiac guys moved up to '67-up 400/455 powered Birds & Goats, with Q-jet carbs & TH400 trans.

If any of you guys have any info, or insight into this, I'd appreciate hearing it !

Below is the only pic I have of a 2-speed GTO Stocker.

Edit: Well, I decided to look back thru my '64-'66 GTO pics, to make sure I hadn't overlooked an auto trans Stocker. To my surprise, I DID find one. On the rear fender, it even says it was an AHRA nat record holder. The reason I haven't used this pic very much is because it appears to have a Tempest grill, rather than a GTO grill. So, I assumed it was probably not legal & only ran some local outlaw track. I never even noticed the "AHRA Record Holder", until tonight. By chance, does anybody here know anything about either of these cars ?

Rory McNeil · 10-28-2021, 11:27 PM

On that 65 2 door sedan, between the Tempest grill, missing headlights, and funny looking front bumper, I have to assume that the AHRA tech department was much more relaxed than NHRA and Farmer were.

oldskool · 10-28-2021, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rory McNeil

On that 65 2 door sedan, between the Tempest grill, missing headlights, and funny looking front bumper, I have to assume that the AHRA tech department was much more relaxed than NHRA and Farmer were.

Yeah, as I mentioned, the non-GTO front is the reason I haven't used the pic much, & never even looked close enuff to see the AHRA record holder words.

Here's one POSSIBLE explanation. It has B/SA on it. That doesn't look to be the way AHRA marked it's Stockers. So, I figure the car set the AHRA record while being raced by a previous owner.

Or, could be the same owner & driver, but was being run at a local NHRA track, when this pic was made. I suppose it's also possible that there had been some sort of front end damage & the non-GTO parts were a quick, temporary fix, 'til the correct parts were acquired. Mere speculation on my part, since all I have to go on is what you see in the pic.

Anybody know the car, the driver, or the dealer ? Built by the Agee bros. Driven by Dick Agee. Dealer was Thompson Pontiac. Engine balanced by C & H Automotive. Have no idea what city or state either business was in.

Just Googled Thompson Pontiac. Got a current GM dealer in Springfield, MO. Don't know if it's the same family business, or not. Says this business has been family owned since 1919. Sent an inquiry message about the car. Am interested to see if there is anyone there old enuff to remember the car.

Mark Yacavone · 10-28-2021, 11:52 PM

No, but Formula 3 would be 2 bbl. I believe. Maybe the record or standard was soft enough that this car was competitive over there.
I can't imagine any 2 speed being very fast with 1965 type converters.
I've seen 2 speed Buick Stockers but they had the switch pitch converters. Pontiac didn't use it.

Mark Yacavone · 10-28-2021, 11:58 PM

BTW, I think the 326 HO with a 3 speed would be a player if they took off about 30 hp.
It's an 11 to 1 motor.
They were very fast on the street in pure stock form with a 4 speed.

oldskool · 10-29-2021, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

BTW, I think the 326 HO with a 3 speed would be a player if they took off about 30 hp.
It's an 11 to 1 motor.
They were very fast on the street in pure stock form with a 4 speed.

IF I were going to build a Pontiac Stocker, I'd go with one that came with a Q-jet. They just seem to provide plenty of gas for whatever engine you're running. Have run good on 301 Stockers on up to 428 powered 8 sec GT Super Stockers.

But, I reckin AFB's & 2-barrels have also won lots of races. The '66 GTO 335hp AFB engine has only a 300hp factor. So, maybe it would be more competitive than the Tri-Power engine, @ 60hp less. I'm assuming that the Tri-Power would NOT make 60 more hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

Don't think I'm gonna try to hold my breath 'til somebody builds a 2-speed Pontiac Stocker, converted to 3-speed. If somebody did, it would be like you said about the 326. Would need a big hp factor reduction. For this, don't know what combo would be the best to build. Seems that the '66 Tri-Power GTO did the best of the 389 GTO's. Don't know how low the hp factor would have to be, to make it competitive. It's 360 now. Would need to be a lot lower than that.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

Norman Warling & Bob Michael run pretty good with their '62 Tri-Power 389 Stockers. But their hp factor is only 275hp. Lotta difference in that & 360hp, for the '66 GTO.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

I suppose that if I had to choose a 2-speed to 3-speed conversion Pontiac to build, without doing any more research, I'd choose the '68 Firebird 350HO. The hp factor is only 305hp, & it uses a Q-jet. And Adam Strang ran some 10.80's with his 4-speed 350HO, in E/S. Not the best Pontiac combo, but far from the worst.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

Stan Weiss · 10-28-2021, 11:58 PM

Could a only find 1 reference. I hope it is the same person / car.

Dick Agee drove the Thompson GTO to a national record.
Agee's official elapsed time in the 1965 GTO was 13.30 seconds

Stan

Stan Weiss · 10-29-2021, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

No, but Formula 3 would be 2 bbl. I believe. Maybe the record or standard was soft enough that this car was competitive over there.
I can't imagine any 2 speed being very fast with 1965 type converters.
I've seen 2 speed Buick Stockers but they had the switch pitch converters. Pontiac didn't use it.

Mark,
You seem to know the AHRA rules. The car in the picture does not have the original front bumper. How can it run stock?

Stan

oldskool · 10-29-2021, 12:21 AM

"Formula 3 would be 2 bbl. I believe..."

Yeah, but the '65 Goat just has B/SA on it. ASSUMING that was for when that car ran at an NHRA track. Don't know.

"...Dick Agee drove the Thompson GTO to a national record.
Agee's official elapsed time in the 1965 GTO was 13.30 seconds..."

So, when & where did this happen ? Is the class listed ?

10-28-2021, 10:38 PM	#2
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ? "...in 2010 i believe...then within a year nhra opened the flood gates and allowed any GM trans..." So, 2-speed GM cars have been able to run a 3-speed now for just over 10 years. Anybody here disagree with that ? So, for you guys who race a full schedule, including nat events & div races, AND are familiar with LOTS of Stocker combos, do any of ya'll know of any Buick, Olds, or Pontiac models, which came with the 2-speed Super Turbine 300(IIRC, Olds called it Jet-a-Way), which have been actively racing in Stock, in the past 10 years ? For you older guys, who were running a full schedule back in the late '60's or at least by the mid '70's, what year was the last time you saw, or knew of, a SERIOUS '64-'66 GTO Stocker, running an auto trans ? The reason I ask, besides just my being a Pontiac Freek, is because the 2-speed BOP trans I mentioned is the only auto trans that was legal for those cars. In the mid '60's, there were lots of 4-speed GTO Stockers, especially the Tri-Power models. But, I have only run across 1 pic of a '64-'66 auto trans Stocker. It was a '64 model, named "Lil 2 Speed". From the markings, looks like it was running either AHRA or IHRA. A few of the big Pontiac dealers ran some pretty quick 4-speed GTO's, especially the Tri-Power '66 models. But, if I've seen one running an auto, I don't remember it. I just ASSUME this is because of the 2-speed. Apparently, those 2-speeds could be built strong enuff for Stock Elim duty. My trans guy said he could easily build one that would hold up behind my 455 bracket engine. And, I think the TH350/400 converters will work in the non-lock-up 2-speeds. Hey, I haven't even ran across any info indicating that a competitive '64-'66 GTO, of any kind, ran Stock in the '70's & later. I suppose that most Pontiac guys moved up to '67-up 400/455 powered Birds & Goats, with Q-jet carbs & TH400 trans. If any of you guys have any info, or insight into this, I'd appreciate hearing it ! Below is the only pic I have of a 2-speed GTO Stocker. Edit: Well, I decided to look back thru my '64-'66 GTO pics, to make sure I hadn't overlooked an auto trans Stocker. To my surprise, I DID find one. On the rear fender, it even says it was an AHRA nat record holder. The reason I haven't used this pic very much is because it appears to have a Tempest grill, rather than a GTO grill. So, I assumed it was probably not legal & only ran some local outlaw track. I never even noticed the "AHRA Record Holder", until tonight. By chance, does anybody here know anything about either of these cars ? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by oldskool; 10-28-2021 at 11:16 PM.

10-28-2021, 11:27 PM	#3
Rory McNeil VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: from Vancouver BC Canada, now in Nova Scotia Posts: 1,311 Likes: 319 Liked 1,106 Times in 303 Posts	Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ? On that 65 2 door sedan, between the Tempest grill, missing headlights, and funny looking front bumper, I have to assume that the AHRA tech department was much more relaxed than NHRA and Farmer were. __________________ NHRA 6390 STK M/S 85 Mustang

10-28-2021, 11:52 PM	#5
Mark Yacavone Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Miles From Nowhere Posts: 7,833 Likes: 2,927 Liked 5,144 Times in 1,964 Posts	Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ? No, but Formula 3 would be 2 bbl. I believe. Maybe the record or standard was soft enough that this car was competitive over there. I can't imagine any 2 speed being very fast with 1965 type converters. I've seen 2 speed Buick Stockers but they had the switch pitch converters. Pontiac didn't use it. __________________ "We are lucky we don't get as much Government as we pay for." Will Rogers

10-28-2021, 11:58 PM	#6
Mark Yacavone Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Miles From Nowhere Posts: 7,833 Likes: 2,927 Liked 5,144 Times in 1,964 Posts	Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ? BTW, I think the 326 HO with a 3 speed would be a player if they took off about 30 hp. It's an 11 to 1 motor. They were very fast on the street in pure stock form with a 4 speed. __________________ "We are lucky we don't get as much Government as we pay for." Will Rogers

10-28-2021, 11:58 PM	#8
Stan Weiss Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Phila, PA Posts: 796 Likes: 0 Liked 735 Times in 386 Posts	Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ? Could a only find 1 reference. I hope it is the same person / car. Dick Agee drove the Thompson GTO to a national record. Agee's official elapsed time in the 1965 GTO was 13.30 seconds Stan

10-29-2021, 12:21 AM	#10
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ? "Formula 3 would be 2 bbl. I believe..." Yeah, but the '65 Goat just has B/SA on it. ASSUMING that was for when that car ran at an NHRA track. Don't know. "...Dick Agee drove the Thompson GTO to a national record. Agee's official elapsed time in the 1965 GTO was 13.30 seconds..." So, when & where did this happen ? Is the class listed ?