Flat tappet lifter failure

Alan R. Sent this to me..
Eye opener.

[Doug Hoven]

I find it humorous that even after 14 pages of arguing and complaining, some don't understand that if you want a roller cam, either build a car that came with one, or run Super Stock. A close friend often jokes with me that Stock Eliminator is going to morph into a class where engine rules will be as follows: Bore and Stroke, compression, cam lift, stock castings with no welding or epoxy. It's always a good laugh, but the sad part is that if this class does last long enough, I wouldn't be surprised at something like that happening. First it's "I can't get a flat tappet cam to live, let me run a roller." Next it will be "I can't get .8,.9,1,1.2mm rings and spacers for my approved pistons with all the grooves moved around, so you should let me run a piston designed for a thin ring." So on and so forth, until it becomes even more of a joke than what's allowed now.

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven

I find it humorous that even after 14 pages of arguing and complaining, some don't understand that if you want a roller cam, either build a car that came with one, or run Super Stock. A close friend often jokes with me that Stock Eliminator is going to morph into a class where engine rules will be as follows: Bore and Stroke, compression, cam lift, stock castings with no welding or epoxy. It's always a good laugh, but the sad part is that if this class does last long enough, I wouldn't be surprised at something like that happening. First it's "I can't get a flat tappet cam to live, let me run a roller." Next it will be "I can't get .8,.9,1,1.2mm rings and spacers for my approved pistons with all the grooves moved around, so you should let me run a piston designed for a thin ring." So on and so forth, until it becomes even more of a joke than what's allowed now.

I found the podcast to be very informative. It’s getting very hard to get quality metal and coatings. We are loosing venders ( bought up) then there goes the one on one handshake for parts.
I’m not pushing for rollers. I’m sure you understand that.
I have a small pile of flat tappet mechanical cams…not because they are damaged, because we found a better cam.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven

I find it humorous that even after 14 pages of arguing and complaining, some don't understand that if you want a roller cam, either build a car that came with one, or run Super Stock. A close friend often jokes with me that Stock Eliminator is going to morph into a class where engine rules will be as follows: Bore and Stroke, compression, cam lift, stock castings with no welding or epoxy. It's always a good laugh, but the sad part is that if this class does last long enough, I wouldn't be surprised at something like that happening. First it's "I can't get a flat tappet cam to live, let me run a roller." Next it will be "I can't get .8,.9,1,1.2mm rings and spacers for my approved pistons with all the grooves moved around, so you should let me run a piston designed for a thin ring." So on and so forth, until it becomes even more of a joke than what's allowed now.

Barry wasn't asking for rollers. He and I have been discussing cams, and the problems associated with flat tappets. I have talked to a few people about trying to get racers some help getting better quality flat tappet stuff. The point of the video was how much of an uphill battle we are facing. The industry isn't too terribly interested in helping us.


However, that is absolutely not an excuse to just change the rule. We remain opposed to changing the rule. I refuse to simply give up.

[Doug Hoven]

I understand completely. The material that camshafts were made out of 15-20 years ago seems to have been a much better material than what they are now. The camshaft I ran in my engine has had hundreds if not close to a thousand passes on it, and still looks brand new, but it was made 20+ years ago. I was fortunate to have a donation of old camshafts over this past season. A few may be of use the way they are, but at least if the lobe separation is what I want, I could always get them reground. Especially with cam prices, I’d much rather send an old cam out to get reground than have a new one done. As expensive as things are in stock, I would think that more and more would switch to a billet cam rather than a cast cam. I’m still amazed how cheap you can get an off the shelf cam from summit, competition products nowadays. For less than $200, you can get a cam and a set of flat tappet lifters(hydraulic of course). Not that you could race with one, but IMHO it’s crazy how prices can double and triple for a cast custom grind cam. There’s some users in this thread that seemed to have given up, and the only solution to make them happy would be to allow rollers. I hope that NHRA is smart enough to leave that rule alone.

Did I hear them say in the conversation that they took a flat tappet grind, pretty much copied for a roller and saw negative gain?
I’ll watch it again.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven

I understand completely. The material that camshafts were made out of 15-20 years ago seems to have been a much better material than what they are now. The camshaft I ran in my engine has had hundreds if not close to a thousand passes on it, and still looks brand new, but it was made 20+ years ago. I was fortunate to have a donation of old camshafts over this past season. A few may be of use the way they are, but at least if the lobe separation is what I want, I could always get them reground. Especially with cam prices, I’d much rather send an old cam out to get reground than have a new one done. As expensive as things are in stock, I would think that more and more would switch to a billet cam rather than a cast cam. I’m still amazed how cheap you can get an off the shelf cam from summit, competition products nowadays. For less than $200, you can get a cam and a set of flat tappet lifters(hydraulic of course). Not that you could race with one, but IMHO it’s crazy how prices can double and triple for a cast custom grind cam. There’s some users in this thread that seemed to have given up, and the only solution to make them happy would be to allow rollers. I hope that NHRA is smart enough to leave that rule alone.

So it is being said that CWC, the company that was doing cast cores, is going to severely curtail production of cast cores, if not cease it entirely. I'm sure they'll kill the "P-55" cores, the lobe lock cores, etc. None of the cam companies will invest in large enough runs to make it feasible to cast them. The current cost of labor and quality materials, and the current anti foundry climate is driving this as well.



The steel billet cores are extremely expensive. Most are intended for high lift roller cams. If you were to grind them for low lift stock applications, you'll grind through the heat treat. This will require another heat treat operation, a finish grind operation, and a polish operation. They're also not necessarily always available. There has been a serious shortage of billets for even custom rollers. I've had to wait months for cams I once got in a week.



The cost of tool steel lifters has more than quadrupled, and the wait time is measured in quarters, not weeks or months. I have been a dealer almost since they were first released.


There is no quick, simple solution, especially since most of the camshaft companies have been bought by "private equity" corporations, who have zero interest in any custom work. They want only "A" and "B" movers that they can move, mostly through big box stores, for a consistent fairly large margin. The same applies to most suppliers of flat tappets.


Still, merely switching to roller lifters is not the solution that the uninitiated think it is, nor what the people on that round table think it is.

[Terry Cain]

"There’s some users in this thread that seemed to have given up, and the only solution to make them happy would be to allow rollers."

Yep. That's me. After 3 failures in a role, not racing for 2 years while waiting on parts and then the cost. Yep, That is me.
Not to worry, I sold the car. Guess I'll quit racing as everyone wants to stick their head in the sand and go about this problem like it doesn't exist.

[Billy Nees]

Alan, it seems to me (and I'm saying this with a grin on my face and my tongue in my cheek!) that with the attrition-rate of aftermarket parts manufacturers and the availability of hard-core parts, we may soon all be either racing new (newer) combos or front-wheel-drive pieces of s!!t! ;-(

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Terry Cain

"There’s some users in this thread that seemed to have given up, and the only solution to make them happy would be to allow rollers."

Yep. That's me. After 3 failures in a role, not racing for 2 years while waiting on parts and then the cost. Yep, That is me.
Not to worry, I sold the car. Guess I'll quit racing as everyone wants to stick their head in the sand and go about this problem like it doesn't exist.

ROFLMAO!!!!!


You are utterly oblivious. There are several people who are working behind the scenes to find a viable solution to the problem. They're talking to cam companies and lifter companies, trying to find the requisite quality, availability, and affordability, to solve the problem. Some people are doing a lot more for the class than just posting whines and begging for rule changes. But you just go right on crying, I'm sure that will help more than anything.