How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

[greg fulk]

Anybody got a 1/2 second Steve can borrow for the comp. car? as for the question...do we need to combine anymore classes? We have the F.I. cars in with the carb car now let's let that run for a couple years before we change anything else. my .2 cents is "IF" they were to change anythig it would be go to 1lb weight breaks....but it would have no effect on me so that's why I say to go that way.

[Chris1529]

I have said this before, but a good announcer who knows the cars and knows more about the drivers can make or break a session of stock/super stock for the fans.

The fans need to know that the drivers worked on their cars up until the time they left their driveway, that we drove all night to get to a track just in time to make the first qualifying pass, that we changed a flat trailer tire or zip tied the fender to the trailer on our way to the track. A regular announcer from each division can get to know the drivers as well as their cars. They need to know that a Camaro is a Camaro, but they need to know a little more about each car. Each car and driver has a personality. In my opinion, that is what can make or break the classes. Given some background, it will put a different spin on the races when a SS/EX Cobalt runs Bucky Hess (ex.) first round at Indy.

maybe with alot of tracks putting in new timing and computer systems, there could be sort of a pop-up screen that includes a few things about you or your car that the announcers can work in to their call.

Just look at the driver blogs that NHRA has for the pro's. How many of you read about Angelle Sampey having to take her pet monkey to a shelter in Florida because he got so mean that she could no longer take care of him. That is just one example.

Alot of our older fans relate to the cars, but newer fans from different generations are into information and details. That is what the sanctioning bodies need to supply to them.

[Alan Roehrich]

Uh, I hate to be the guy to break the bad news to you, but Dick Butler was NOT the guy who started Top Stock, OR Jr. Stock for that matter. That would be Division 1 tech man Dave Ley. Dick has only been trying to promote Top Stock and Top Super Stock in Division 3, with some success, at least with Top Stock. I have been helping him. Because some Division 2 racers, about 2 dozen or so, have asked, we've been trying to get Top Stock going in Division 2. So Dick didn't "get classes he wanted", but rather he HELPED some racers to get classes they wanted. No one is paying him, either, he does not get a dime, every penny is paid back to the racers. He drives at his own expense to the races, and has actually driven a thousand miles at his own expense just to help promote the races to potential sponsors. I have yet to see Top Stock take a time trial or anything else from the regular program. It is wildly popular with the racers AND the fans in Division 1. It does fairly well in Division 3, given the limited number of races run so far.

Dick isn't the guy who came up with the idea to consolidate classes, either. That came from other racers, and I also overheard some NHRA people talking about it. Maybe it is a good idea, maybe it isn't. But it might be coming whether we like it or not, so it might be wise to study the idea, and at least be able to give input on it if it comes about.

On the flip side, I disagree completely with Dick's proposal to eliminate a bunch of combinations in an attempt to streamline the classes. If it is in the class guide legitimately, it needs to stay there for people to try. It may or may not be necessary to consolidate the classes further, but it is not necessary to remove cars or combinations. I don't care if it is fast or slow, or even if it is front wheel drive.

Honestly, asking if the front wheel drive cars can competitively run in a class with rear wheel drive cars is a legitimate question. People not familiar with front wheel drive cars probably won't know the answer. So rather than throw a temper tantrum, consider taking the time to give a polite, honest answer as to whether it will work or not, and if it won't, why.

Consider this: Change is inevitable. NOTHING is FOREVER. The sport of drag racing has been in a constant state of change throughout its history. Even in my relatively short time as a diehard fan, from the age of 6 or 7 years old, I've seen radical change from top to bottom, and that only covers a period of less than 40 years.

Further, not all change makes everyone happy. Even no change will not make everyone happy. And remember, the one thing that does not change is that there will be change.

Sportsman racing, and yes class racing as a subset, will change, as it always has. This year we've seen AA class added in Stock, and the fuel injected classes merged. Next year, we already know that "sport compact" cars will come to Super Stock. And we do not know what else will change.

What is sad is that this is supposed to be an adult group, but it never fails that instead of a calm rational discussion, we get name calling and temper tantrums. You see as much of "If I don't get my way I'll take my ball and go home" here as you'll see on any kindergarten playground. Rather than making any real attempt to talk or debate, possibly working towards or at least considering a compromise if nothing else, for the good of the class, we have what amounts to people stomping their feet and holding their breath. Hell, it looks to me like a lot of people can't even agree to disagree with at least decency and mutual respect.

I'm not saying "why can't we all just get along", because that's not really a reasonable goal. I can listen to and respect just about anyone who can state their position with facts and decency rather than a bunch of uncalled for histrionics, and I can accept and respect their opinion, not matter how vehemently I disagree with it.

Whether or not anyone wants it, I'd bet change is coming, and we'd all be a lot better off trying to achieve some sort of workable compromises, rather than refusing to even try. Because if we don't direct the change ourselves, they'll do it the way they want, and you'll get what they give you. And I'm betting very few will like it. Given what I've seen around here in the last few days, I can understand why few people would want to be on the committee, and why NHRA would not want to bother trying to work with the racers when they can more easily just do what they want to.

[Jim Wahl]

Alan, When I said "you got your Top Stock and your Jr. Stock and several other heads up classes." to Dick, I meant collectively. As in: you ALL have your classes. Everyone knows in Dick's world the only kind of racing is heads up. Everything else is just bracket racing and shouldn't be allowed. I don't begrudge you your class, so don't you begrudge me mine. Get it?

Several years ago NHRA said they were going to combine FWD cars with RWD cars, do you remember? With some assistance a study was done. It was determined it wasn't possible. That is when they decided to eliminate them all together. I'll give you an example. I'll use my car. I run BF/S which is a 16lb class. Now, cross that over to RWD classes and you come up with P/SA a 16lb class. Now I have run a best of 13.60 at BF/S weight. My index is 14.95. P/SA index is 13.75. The record in P/SA is currently 12.17. The record in BF/S is currently 13.97. Do you see a disparity there? Now comes the question, why? I won't even get into the physics of "pulling" a car 1320 feet and "pushing" a car that distance. Lets just say that efficiency is on the side of "pushing". Then you get into the parts disparities. There are generally no trick cams (I use a totally bone stock cam) lifters, pistons, superseded heads, rods, cranks, oil pans available for FWD combos. There are also no trick gear ratios for the transmissions. No final drive options either. Basically 90% of a FWD Stocker is truly "stock" They just started making real slicks available for FWD cars about 5 years ago, and there are only 2 or 3 sizes at that. I would say the FWD cars are the only true Stockers running now-a-days. My Spirit from the factory would run in the 18 second range. Could you knock almost 5 seconds off your combo using bone stock parts? No trick transmissions, no unlimited rear gear ratio, no trick cams, pistons, rods, cranks superseded heads, ignitions, computers etc. I hope that answers your question as to why FWD cars can not run equally with RWD cars. Jim

[Alan Roehrich]

Jim, you CAN get pistons, cams, and lifters for your car. You would have to PAY for them just like the rest of us.

We don't get "trick" oil pans, we have to run stock GM pans. We could weld baffles, if necessary. They aren't. I have a scraper and a windage tray. Both could easily be fabricated in any garage where you'd maintain a race car.

There's nothing "trick" about a connecting rod. We have to run stock dimension rods (some can run a different rod, if necessary NHRA will approve something) and the aftermarket will make you any rod you want. If you NEED an upgraded rod, they'll make it and NHRA will approve it. But a stock dimension rod won't make you any faster, even in you manage to get it a few grams lighter.

NHRA offers you .430" lift on your cam or factory lift, whichever is higher (special for FWD), and I run a .390/.410 in the G/S car, cores for your cam are available, and a cam company WILL grind you a stocker style cam. It's even easier and cheaper these days, with computer modeling, and CNC grinders so you don't even have to pay to make a master. They'll even cut you a trick steel core custom from a billet, if you want, just like they will for me.

If you need a flat tappet made, several companies will make you a tool steel flat tappet, and if you want them DLC coated, they'll do that too. Whoever makes the Shubeck style lifter would probably be more than happy to make you a set.

I can't run replacement heads on the G/S car either. It's the original head approved for the car. Some of the fastest rear wheel drive cars in the country run original casting heads.

I have to run a stock crank, nothing trick, a GM forging, blueprinted. You can have yours blueprinted, too. Anyone who can do a Stock blueprint on a 350 Chevy crank can do the exact same thing for you.

JE, CP, Ross, Diamond, or Venolia will make you a set of pistons just likeJE made mine. And you can go through the NHRA piston approval process, just like I did.

Total Seal will make you just about any ring package you can think of, so long as a base ring is available in the bore size. They'll cut them down, they'll make spacers, they'll do a Napier cut, they'll even mix and match oil ring components. So will Childs and Albert, so will Ackerly and Childs, and if you're really industrious, you can get a Speed Pro catalog, and make some of it up yourself out of open stock. I did that long before I started getting Total Seal to do it for me.

If you want to work with the wiring, you can have aftermarket ignition, if you need it. We adapted MSD stuff to computer cars long before there was "plug and play" stuff available. You can do it too, if you need it.

And there are PLENTY of aftermarket EFI computers, and they don't ALL just work on Camaros and Firebirds. Computers are stupid, they just crunch numbers, and read tables. The factory programmed yours, just like they did the ones for Camaros, Corvettes, Firebirds, and Mustangs. An aftermarket programmer can be adapted to reprogram yours, just like it can theirs.

You can have whatever header you need made, or make it yourself. If you want or need one, any number of custom header companies will make them.

Ferrea, REV, Manley, or any number of valve companies will make you a set of stainless under cut valves, too. And they won't be much if any higher than ours are.

No, you can't get aftermarket gear sets or final drives, you do have a handicap there, I agree. About all you have is converter options. As short as some of those slicks are, they shorten up the gear just a little.

But do not try to tell me you can't have parts made for your engine like the rest of us, or you can't tune your computer. I have custom stuff made on a monthly basis, and I've been through the NHRA approval process, the hard way.

Without what you call "trick parts", you are, by your own admission 1.35 under your INDEX, and .37 under the RECORD. If those trick parts that I have supposedly make it not only possible but easy for me to go fast, imagine what they'll do for you, as fast as you are without them!

As a comparison, 1.35 under for me would be a 10.85, and .37 under the record would be a 10.61. Doesn't seem to me like you have it all THAT tough. NHRA would have me down so far it'd take 3 people 8 hours just to load the car in the trailer, and it'd take a month to put it back together. Not to mention a 10.60 would get me enough HP to move up a couple of classes.

I don't begrudge you a class to race your car. But I don't buy the line about not being able to buy parts, except drivetrain parts. And supposedly, it's more efficient to pull a car than to push it. Or so several FWD car makers claim.

[Jim Wahl]

Alan, I think you missed the whole point of my last post. The question raised was why can't FWD cars compete with RWD cars in the same weight class. I showed you that on my best run ever in great air I ran .15 under the P/SA index which would be the comparable RWD class. I could put twin turbos and a Warren Johnson built engine in the car and never come anywhere near the 12.17 record! There is the problem of traction also. When a FWD car leaves the line the weight transfers to the rear end and makes the front lighter which make the tires spin. The same action is an advantage for a RWD car. Have you ever seen the size tires those Sport FWD guys have to run to get their cars to hook?
Look, I'm not going to battle you on every little point. You have made some good ones. However you are dead wrong on several. Now here is where I am at the advantage, I have run RWD cars for many years in Stock and Super Stock and no, I didn't set the world on fire, much like you, but I do have a good grasp on how they work. You on the other hand I'm betting, have never even worked on a FWD race car let alone driven one, and that's ok with me. But after saying that, I find it hard to believe that you could profess to me that I and the other FWD racers "don't have it so bad". I respectfully am telling you that you know not of what you speak this time! The one thing that sticks out to me is, and I have got to believe most people reading this will agree, is that it is just plain silly to try and say that parts availability are equal between my 2.5 Chrysler and the small block Chevy. Remember FWD was started as an inexpensive route for guys without boatloads of money to enjoy the sport. All I want to do is have fun. All I want is for guys like Dick to realize is that some people have different ideas about things, and I want him to respect that, not try and do away with it! You have never heard ME say there are too many RWD classes and I think we should get rid of them. I constantly hear that from many people on here about FWD cars though. 5 frigging classes! Thats all there are. Can't we all just get along? I will be glad to speak to you one on one Alan my friend the next time I see you but this is my last post on the subject here. You can only beat an old dog so many times before he bites you, I'm afraid I'm gunna bite somebody! Peace. Jim

[Alan Roehrich]

I don't think anyone raised the question, or the evil specter, of FWD cars competing with RWD cars at the same weight class. You ASSUMED they were.

Jim, you claimed you can't buy the parts. The Chrysler 2.5 liter 4 cylinder is not that hard to get parts for, people race them, and Chrysler supports them. Further, you seem to be inferring that Stock Eliminator parts for a small block Chevy, (or Ford, or Chrysler for that matter), are just commonly available at your local speed shop or parts store. No, they are not. You have to special order ALL of them. Pistons are custom made to order, you don't call Jeg's or Summit. Same with camshafts, same with rings, and all the other parts YOU claimed WE have that are "trick", and YOU claim are not available to YOU. I went down YOUR list, and told you what you could do, if you WANTED to, just like the rest of us do. I also agreed you couldn't get the drivetrain parts we can.

Further, you admit that you don't have the blueprinted Stock parts we have, and yet you can run so much farther under the index AND the record that AT LEAST as far as qualifying goes that there is NO COMPARISON. Then you claim you can't compete. But since you haven't bought the parts like the rest of us, you cannot back up that claim. You don't know what the engine CAN do, because you claim you can't get the parts. And yes, I've seen the FWD sport compact racing.

You plainly state you picked your car up almost FIVE SECONDS, and do it WITHOUT all of those engine parts, and told me I couldn't do that with mine (and you are right). And then you go on to tell everyone how far under the index and the record you can run without those parts, 1.35 under the index, and .37 under the current record. Well, I can tell you that a 69 Camaro 255HP 350 4 speed car will run around a mid 15 second quarter on street tires. The RECORD in G/S is 10.98, so that's 4 1/2 seconds, and to do it, you have to have all those trick parts you claim you can't get. That's 1.22 under the index. So, you've picked your car up more than I could pick mine up by the current standards, run farther under the index, AND can reset the record, by almost 4 TENTHS. Further, you did it without al those "trick parts". And you want to tell me because your slicks are on the other end of the car, you have it so much harder than guys like me?

You're right Jim, I don't work on FWD stockers. I worked on FWD cars for a living for years, and do not want to again. Yes, actually I have driven FWD cars at the track, and no, I much care for them. But that does not mean I don't have any idea how they work. And you came right out and told all of us they don't need parts to go fast (comparatively speaking).

Not only that, but the last race I was at, there were THREE cars I had to race for class (I got stomped, I've only run 7 tenths under, I'll go faster next time). So there are cars out there to keep guys like me honest, and make us actually run hard. When is the last time you faced three cars in your class at a small race like a SportsNational Open? You don't have to worry too much about anyone getting you HP, either.

To be in the same position as the guys racing G/S with the same combination as I am, or similar combinations, you'd have to have an index of 14.80, and you'd hold the record with your 13.60. AND you'd have to run a 13.80 to win class, most places you went, and face 2-4 cars. And that's BEFORE you'd have to buy all those parts you don't already have. And then you'd have to buy all those parts, because the other guys would, and NHRA would refactor you, just like they have us.

Your performance numbers, without the trick parts, put you on par with T/SA. They run at 19 pounds, you run at 16. So, what happens if NHRA says "okay, we're going to merge the FWD cars with the rest, and the handicap is that the FWD cars run 3.0 pounds per HP lighter than RWD"? I'm not saying it could, or should be done. But since you compared your numbers to a RWD class at the same weight, and you claim a severe disadvantage, I compared them to a much heavier RWD class.

So Jim, we've been honest, no name calling, and we've only stated FACTS. We disagree, and I can respect the fact that you race a FWD stocker, and you like it. But you say you can't discuss it anymore without getting mad? That's a shame. You assume we all want FWD cars kicked out. That's not true. The vast majority of us are fine with FWD cars, or slow RWD cars. But just don't try to tell us all how far the table is tilted for us and against you when the parts bill, the qualifying sheets, and the performance gains prove otherwise. And I still like you, I still respect you, I still want you to have a class to race your car, and I can still disagree with you and not get nasty.

[Dick Butler]

Alan,
Thanks for the information you posted regarding the TOP/STK racing. Even better the discussion of parts availablity. Small block chevies didnt get running this fast by not ordering the parts. Rear wheel cars didnt get fast by not having the first person start the process of pro gears, Axles etc.Manufacturers create parts based on requests for them.
Seems from Jims discussion the FWD cars have not really shared the cost of approaching a manufacturer to start making the trick unbreakable parts to run faster. It appears by Jims on performances they havent needed these parts and it has gotten comfortable that way.
On one site a group of people were pooling money to purchase 5.00 gears for their cars as the manufacturers were willing to make a "run" if enough were purchased.
With the prior FWD racing meets enough people with money or need to buy these better parts didnt surface and the manufacturers didnt get into common production of them. The lack of interest from racers resulted in the demise of the NHRA series and the second sponsor.
Jim Who has the turbo Neon who drives to the meet in IHRA and qualifies 1.4 under? Just a question.
Jim as I posted on Superstockforum yesterday, I apologize that you took the "Class racing Question" as a "do away with FWD" topic. IT IS NOT. It is a consolidate topic to save Class racing so the $30K stockers are not just used for Bracket racing. The $150,000 AH cars not only have Indy to be presented as an attraction.

Alan is correct, changes are inevitable and I was only curious what constructive discussion points could be discussed to help direct these changes. If the racers continue to say "NHRA provides it so it must be right" many will keep being upset as the changes just Happen to them. With an Advisory committee attempt by NHRA , with honest calm discussion maybe NHRA would realize the racers CAN help direct the changes for better racing and work WITH NHRA to improve it for EVERYONE. Thanks