How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? - Page 4

Dick Butler · 07-20-2008, 10:50 AM

Start with the reasons for the question which started this post.
1) no sponsor money or very low for S and SS other than Eliminator
Reason Large number of classes to post and many nationals. Disgust with paying NHRA for empty class or bye run racers. They see this as poor investment as no cars using their products in class.
2) Low car counts in many classes and when entry restricted lower per class or many byes
Reason: Total numbers of racers in the country divided by many classes and geography cant all enter or attend.
3)Spectator appeal down at Divisional and Open events and even Sportsnational Spectator numbers down to essentially nothing. Result No money other than participants entry and Sponsor money to pay prize money and overhead. Reasons Many including internal attitude of NHRA feeling no one cars about Sportsman racing as a spectator due to many factors. The least of which is not the Dial in only format.
4) High Cost of creating S or SS car which can run competitively under the index is extreme today.If they are only to be used to Dial in for eliminator then WHY the high technology, WHy the strict rules(changing).
5) There are racers who enjoy winning class and the Pride which comes from this type of racing.
6) Eliminator only truely rewards one S and SS racer. RESPONSE: If more classes had 15 cars and could attract paying sponsors again then MANY racers could share at this level the rewards of Trophy, Pride in achievement and driving skills.
Couldnt there at least be more opportunity and conditions that increase that possibility, and encourage SPonsors to pay.Isnt the dilution to few or one car per class showing the opportunity to merge some classes?Isnt the change to quickest 128 showing that performance is overriding the Class win due to its diminished value from the NHRA point of view and the more competitive racers being favored?
Jim and Art Notice in no place were FWD cars listed negatively. If you re read the original post Mod cars were questioned in SS and the Stick/ Auto combination questioned as well. GT/SS combination is questioned too.
Any or all of these could take adjustment, factor, wt break but the question stands. How many classes?for improvement of other peoples type of racing preferences.
Seeing SS/AH at 17 cars, GT/AA at 15 and BA at close to that has anyone checked how many classes will not be represented?
People are enthusiatic about the GT/AA class run and SS/AH as well. This could be spread to many classes and the Greater number of racers enjoy the Pride of achievement of winning Class since Eliminator is only a One man victory.

Jim Wahl · 07-20-2008, 03:24 PM

Dick,
I saw no apology written anywhere. Did you see my post where I congratulated you on what you have done? No, don't drive my race cars to the track and race. I see the old FWD legend continues! I also saw no answer to my offer to you. I respect Alan for his knowledge of our sport and what it takes to compete and I doubt he will try to blacken my eye the next time we see each other. You on the other hand don't seem to have a clue in that respect. Maybe you should just stick to promoting specialized cars and races and stop trying to eliminate or combine everyone else to fit into your agenda. I know in "Dick's World" this will be hard to accept but believe it or not, not everyone wants to race a red big block Camaro. My offer still stands, are you man enough? Jim

Slow race cars make the experience last longer!

Dick Butler · 07-20-2008, 04:58 PM

Jim, I posted the apology two days ago on SuperstockForum while Class racer was down. I repeated it in one of my posts here and mean it sincerely. You and I have much in common. You feel strongly and so do I that Class winners ARE the S and SS racers. Having no car today I have no axe to grind with any class or combination. I seek no benefit for me. I just tend to ask questions when I see things going astray. Fastest 128 cars at indy is a decision I question as astray of what S and SS class racing is all about.See we have something we agree on. Now as for Dicks World I imagine you have missed the point of this too. I feel that class is where S and SS is supposed to be raced. Eliminator is fine but.... Only if you win class. Many older racers came to S and SS to race Class. Now Bracket racers are present more and more and with the massive numbers of classes dividing up the other racers it makes Class racing gradually decrease in importance. Hence the Indy rule. Drag Racing has a place for everyone to enter and enjoy and I respect each I just dont want Class Racing to be sacrificed in the process. Your Thoughts?
Jim I missed the offer? Man enough? Point out your offer Thanks...

Don Turk · 07-20-2008, 05:08 PM

Heres a Idea, I may have had too many beers today but here we go ....

Leave the Class structure as is, Qualify as usual, Then Run heads up off of the index with no break out. Heres the Kicker the bottom qualifier runs the car above him/her and so on and so on. This would make for tight races as you progress rounds faster cars under the index would advance unless they were a few hundredths faster and got beat on the tree....

What about sandbaggers Pay the money and the contigency to qualifiers put Dollars in the performance catagory by paying for qualifing spot and then pay a token 25 Bucks a round in eliminations.No Dial ins No breakouts just the guy with the fastest car winning rounds if the driver doesnt get treed Number one qualifier hauls in the Big Cash. Wallets may win but if you put the cash in Performance and the Glory in the eliminator win..Not a bracket race anymore and I would have to get out the wrenches..LOL.

I looked at aold qualifier sheet and if you ran this program most of the first round races could be won by a quick driver on the tree. If you want the big money tune it up and qualify in the top of the field. Small money for going rounds,,

Got to go my Beer is getting warm....

Dick Butler · 07-20-2008, 08:27 PM

Thanks, I still couldn t find the offer. So many anti Dick Butler posts I couldnt find it.Driving a car is always a great experience. ......The part I really enjoy is racing in a class with 10 or so cars and the heads up class racing. Eliminator is fine too.

Jim Wahl · 07-20-2008, 08:56 PM

Dick, second page of this thread, third post down, I said:

"I challenge you to come to the Southern S/SS Assn. race in Reynolds next week and I will put you behind the wheel of my AF/S SRT4 Neon FWD Stocker. If after you make a pass or two you can honestly say it wasn't a "hoot" I will pay your air fare back home. Now don't worry, after 20 years of driving FWD race cars nobody has ever questioned the size of my penis so I doubt they they would question a big bad opinionated guy like you."

There you go, can we expect you for dinner Saturday night? Jim

art leong · 07-20-2008, 09:15 PM

Dick if there are 10 cars in a class there are 9 "LOSERS".
I hope that there are a bunch of like minded racers at the races I attend.If losing is that much fun.
That has always been one of my problems, I allow myself to lose to easily.
"The guy I'm racing is a nice guy ETC. ETC." My partner Ray (Tex) Cook didn't care who was in the next lane he wanted to beat him anyway anyhow.
When I ran the fwd stocker I just wanted to win class I couldn't have cared less about the eliminator. But that was me. And as far as qualifying goes. I could have been number one almost anytime I wanted. So I was in the program.

Dick Butler · 07-21-2008, 07:16 AM

Art,
Using your same thoughts wouldnt it be worse if no possible chance to be the one in 10 to win and instead you were only given a chance to be one of the 127 losers in Eliminations. I support Class and Class winners in eliminations as one of the "Prizes" given for winning class.
Thanks

Dick Butler · 07-21-2008, 04:33 PM

SS/JA and Jim and ART,
I would love a chance to drive a car again. Might do it some time but. The topic is not "does a FWD car create fun"?, It is not" will Dick Butler think they are fun?" They are class cars so we give them credit for being fun.
The topic was started to discuss ALL S and SS classes and cars. ART and Jim have picked out one word(FWD) in the question and chosen to make themselves miserable misinterpreting the question and posting negative comments.
The question is Not about them or their cars.They have Chosen to take the question that way.My driving Jims car or not driving is not the issue. It is an attempt to change the question rather than constructively discussing the question. Fun is a given.
I hope they will re enter the discussion of numbers of classes without fear for their own choice but with the goal of helping make it better for everyone who supports Class Racing.

Dick Butler · 07-21-2008, 06:42 PM

All I can say is Thanks for the offer....I know it would have been fun. Besides we do have a family Birthday to attend this week end....One of Brians children is 13....

07-20-2008, 10:50 AM	#31
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Start with the reasons for the question which started this post. 1) no sponsor money or very low for S and SS other than Eliminator Reason Large number of classes to post and many nationals. Disgust with paying NHRA for empty class or bye run racers. They see this as poor investment as no cars using their products in class. 2) Low car counts in many classes and when entry restricted lower per class or many byes Reason: Total numbers of racers in the country divided by many classes and geography cant all enter or attend. 3)Spectator appeal down at Divisional and Open events and even Sportsnational Spectator numbers down to essentially nothing. Result No money other than participants entry and Sponsor money to pay prize money and overhead. Reasons Many including internal attitude of NHRA feeling no one cars about Sportsman racing as a spectator due to many factors. The least of which is not the Dial in only format. 4) High Cost of creating S or SS car which can run competitively under the index is extreme today.If they are only to be used to Dial in for eliminator then WHY the high technology, WHy the strict rules(changing). 5) There are racers who enjoy winning class and the Pride which comes from this type of racing. 6) Eliminator only truely rewards one S and SS racer. RESPONSE: If more classes had 15 cars and could attract paying sponsors again then MANY racers could share at this level the rewards of Trophy, Pride in achievement and driving skills. Couldnt there at least be more opportunity and conditions that increase that possibility, and encourage SPonsors to pay.Isnt the dilution to few or one car per class showing the opportunity to merge some classes?Isnt the change to quickest 128 showing that performance is overriding the Class win due to its diminished value from the NHRA point of view and the more competitive racers being favored? Jim and Art Notice in no place were FWD cars listed negatively. If you re read the original post Mod cars were questioned in SS and the Stick/ Auto combination questioned as well. GT/SS combination is questioned too. Any or all of these could take adjustment, factor, wt break but the question stands. How many classes?for improvement of other peoples type of racing preferences. Seeing SS/AH at 17 cars, GT/AA at 15 and BA at close to that has anyone checked how many classes will not be represented? People are enthusiatic about the GT/AA class run and SS/AH as well. This could be spread to many classes and the Greater number of racers enjoy the Pride of achievement of winning Class since Eliminator is only a One man victory.

07-20-2008, 03:24 PM	#32
Jim Wahl Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Central Florida Posts: 5,844 Likes: 666 Liked 683 Times in 129 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Dick, I saw no apology written anywhere. Did you see my post where I congratulated you on what you have done? No, don't drive my race cars to the track and race. I see the old FWD legend continues! I also saw no answer to my offer to you. I respect Alan for his knowledge of our sport and what it takes to compete and I doubt he will try to blacken my eye the next time we see each other. You on the other hand don't seem to have a clue in that respect. Maybe you should just stick to promoting specialized cars and races and stop trying to eliminate or combine everyone else to fit into your agenda. I know in "Dick's World" this will be hard to accept but believe it or not, not everyone wants to race a red big block Camaro. My offer still stands, are you man enough? Jim Slow race cars make the experience last longer! __________________ Jim Wahl....NHRA #2239 S/SS - IHRA # 8 Stock, D2 Stock Champion (forever I guess) 2019 Baby Gators Stock Champion 2009 NHRA D2 National Open Stock Champion 1982 NHRA D2 West Palm Beach LDRS SS Runner Up Past President, Southern Stock / Super Stock Association.

07-20-2008, 04:58 PM	#33
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Jim, I posted the apology two days ago on SuperstockForum while Class racer was down. I repeated it in one of my posts here and mean it sincerely. You and I have much in common. You feel strongly and so do I that Class winners ARE the S and SS racers. Having no car today I have no axe to grind with any class or combination. I seek no benefit for me. I just tend to ask questions when I see things going astray. Fastest 128 cars at indy is a decision I question as astray of what S and SS class racing is all about.See we have something we agree on. Now as for Dicks World I imagine you have missed the point of this too. I feel that class is where S and SS is supposed to be raced. Eliminator is fine but.... Only if you win class. Many older racers came to S and SS to race Class. Now Bracket racers are present more and more and with the massive numbers of classes dividing up the other racers it makes Class racing gradually decrease in importance. Hence the Indy rule. Drag Racing has a place for everyone to enter and enjoy and I respect each I just dont want Class Racing to be sacrificed in the process. Your Thoughts? Jim I missed the offer? Man enough? Point out your offer Thanks...

07-20-2008, 05:08 PM	#34
Don Turk Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 90 Likes: 31 Liked 51 Times in 12 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Heres a Idea, I may have had too many beers today but here we go .... Leave the Class structure as is, Qualify as usual, Then Run heads up off of the index with no break out. Heres the Kicker the bottom qualifier runs the car above him/her and so on and so on. This would make for tight races as you progress rounds faster cars under the index would advance unless they were a few hundredths faster and got beat on the tree.... What about sandbaggers Pay the money and the contigency to qualifiers put Dollars in the performance catagory by paying for qualifing spot and then pay a token 25 Bucks a round in eliminations.No Dial ins No breakouts just the guy with the fastest car winning rounds if the driver doesnt get treed Number one qualifier hauls in the Big Cash. Wallets may win but if you put the cash in Performance and the Glory in the eliminator win..Not a bracket race anymore and I would have to get out the wrenches..LOL. I looked at aold qualifier sheet and if you ran this program most of the first round races could be won by a quick driver on the tree. If you want the big money tune it up and qualify in the top of the field. Small money for going rounds,, Got to go my Beer is getting warm....

07-20-2008, 08:27 PM	#35
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Thanks, I still couldn t find the offer. So many anti Dick Butler posts I couldnt find it.Driving a car is always a great experience. ......The part I really enjoy is racing in a class with 10 or so cars and the heads up class racing. Eliminator is fine too.

07-20-2008, 08:56 PM	#36
Jim Wahl Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Central Florida Posts: 5,844 Likes: 666 Liked 683 Times in 129 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Dick, second page of this thread, third post down, I said: "I challenge you to come to the Southern S/SS Assn. race in Reynolds next week and I will put you behind the wheel of my AF/S SRT4 Neon FWD Stocker. If after you make a pass or two you can honestly say it wasn't a "hoot" I will pay your air fare back home. Now don't worry, after 20 years of driving FWD race cars nobody has ever questioned the size of my penis so I doubt they they would question a big bad opinionated guy like you." There you go, can we expect you for dinner Saturday night? Jim __________________ Jim Wahl....NHRA #2239 S/SS - IHRA # 8 Stock, D2 Stock Champion (forever I guess) 2019 Baby Gators Stock Champion 2009 NHRA D2 National Open Stock Champion 1982 NHRA D2 West Palm Beach LDRS SS Runner Up Past President, Southern Stock / Super Stock Association.

07-20-2008, 09:15 PM	#37
art leong VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia Posts: 2,003 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Dick if there are 10 cars in a class there are 9 "LOSERS". I hope that there are a bunch of like minded racers at the races I attend.If losing is that much fun. That has always been one of my problems, I allow myself to lose to easily. "The guy I'm racing is a nice guy ETC. ETC." My partner Ray (Tex) Cook didn't care who was in the next lane he wanted to beat him anyway anyhow. When I ran the fwd stocker I just wanted to win class I couldn't have cared less about the eliminator. But that was me. And as far as qualifying goes. I could have been number one almost anytime I wanted. So I was in the program. __________________ Art Leong 2095 SS

07-21-2008, 07:16 AM	#38
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Art, Using your same thoughts wouldnt it be worse if no possible chance to be the one in 10 to win and instead you were only given a chance to be one of the 127 losers in Eliminations. I support Class and Class winners in eliminations as one of the "Prizes" given for winning class. Thanks

07-21-2008, 04:33 PM	#39
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? SS/JA and Jim and ART, I would love a chance to drive a car again. Might do it some time but. The topic is not "does a FWD car create fun"?, It is not" will Dick Butler think they are fun?" They are class cars so we give them credit for being fun. The topic was started to discuss ALL S and SS classes and cars. ART and Jim have picked out one word(FWD) in the question and chosen to make themselves miserable misinterpreting the question and posting negative comments. The question is Not about them or their cars.They have Chosen to take the question that way.My driving Jims car or not driving is not the issue. It is an attempt to change the question rather than constructively discussing the question. Fun is a given. I hope they will re enter the discussion of numbers of classes without fear for their own choice but with the goal of helping make it better for everyone who supports Class Racing.

07-21-2008, 06:42 PM	#40
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? All I can say is Thanks for the offer....I know it would have been fun. Besides we do have a family Birthday to attend this week end....One of Brians children is 13....