Some random thoughts

Dwight Southerland · 07-24-2008, 01:52 PM

Excellent post, Mike. You addressed the "rightness" rationale of the way Indy was run originally. kudos!!

Another reality that most people would not be aware of is part of the point you made about all the class winners being torn down. Only the winner or runner-up in class earned a spot in the eliminator. The winner had to be torn down. If he failed, the runner-up was then torn down. If neither were found legal, then no one from that class was in the eliminator. This was a way to keep pressure on racers to be legal. The other factor in that equation was that Indy had the biggest payout of any race of the season by a lot. Now, that is not the case, especially since class win payout has dwindled. I won $1000+ for class wins in the 1970s, which would be lots more than that in today's dollars, so there was real incentive to go to Indy to win class legitimately. All of those factors made up an atmosphere that gave glory to Indy class wins. So many of the changes that have been made to "enhance" the race experience (including qualifiers in the eliminator race, restrictions on the definition of a class win, added events, limited tear downs, etc.) have actually eroded class racing as a result. It has been a gradual change, like the frog in the pot of water on a stove. Leadership has missed the point all along.

There is a lot of call for the 128 low qualifiers as an equitable answer. That has a performance element attached to it, it seems, so many would agree that is the "right" way. However, since qualifying is based upon a performance against a mostly arbitrary standard, the performances are more politically defined than actual. At least a class winner has won a contest to qualify. If no one chooses to participate in a given class, it is not the competitor's responsibility to bear; it is the organization that hosts the contest who should bear that responsibility. If the PGA was controlled by a rule set that allowed handicap or scratch golfers to participate in their tournaments, would it then make sense to disqualify a participant who won the tournament playing off his handicap because his score was too low?? No. But that is analgous to what is happening now. Participation in the March Madness NCAA basketball tournament is not determined by who has the best stats; it is about winning games. If they prevent class winners from racing in a class eliminator, it makes more sense to me to qualify purely based on raw ET and run a bracket race rather than claim classes.

Where is the USCN when you want it???

Lynn A McCarty · 07-24-2008, 02:34 PM

Mike is probably right, we did feel "bumped" a couple of years ago when a single car running not even 5 under got to run in the show, and we had to go home. I think we qualified in the 90's or low 100's, and ended up like 8th alternate. (Stacy was so depressed he went home and fell asleep, then they called him and Phil was burning up the phone trying to get him to the track. You see they had never used 8th alternate before that anyone knew.) He had spun trying to beat Wilkes(who was about 2 tenths faster) for class first round of class (usually the fastest run of Indy), and the field went around him as everyone picked up and he didnt.

I also feel for the class car that is a 100% legit combo with no after market parts, high horsepower ratings. This is exacerbated by trying to qualify against cars that have all replacement castings, bogus combo, inappropriate HP ratings, and bogus intake runner cc's. Did you know there are engines below and just over 300 cubic inches that are so bogus their published intake runners are bigger than most Pontiac, Olds, and Buick 455's?

There really are in my opinion nearly equal substantive and legitimate issues on both sides.

Beth Denysenko · 07-24-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Where is the USCN when you want it???

I ask Alex all the time when he is going to do another one . . . maybe one every TEN years?

"Welcome to the 2nd decade-annual USCN 2011!"

LOL I will keep working on him.

Randall Klein · 07-24-2008, 05:36 PM

Two thoughts: when Dwight posts, people should listen...he is one of about a dozen that sets the Gold Standard for insightful historical perspective

Second, to Beth & Alex...I know the first USCN about killed off 'ol Alex, agree or disagree with him, but he let it all hang out to try to offer an alternative to the "way we were". IF, a USCN part 2 becomes a reality, and IF its held somewhere in the middle of the country, say Joliet, Earlville or Topeka, my company will be one of the first to post $.

Dennis P Chapman · 07-24-2008, 07:14 PM

Hey Fred
You should shut your mouth you have nothing better to do then keep
track of what Art, Jim, and myself race.
Well the reason I haven't my wife was battling cancer she passed away
in December 2007. And what Bill Belden put your money where your
mouth is.

Jim Wahl · 07-24-2008, 07:50 PM

And Fred, not that it is any of your business but I will not be at Indy, probably ever again. I have a bone disease called MDS (google it) and would be physically unable to do Indy. Feel better now asshole! Jim

SS Engine Guy · 07-24-2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Where is the USCN when you want it???

Dwight that is probably the best post with analogies to back it up that I have read! Mike Carr, you would have enjoyed the era that you are talking about. Tear down @ 3:00 in the morning, in the rain, under a tarp with headlights and droplights while the tech guys and div director slept in a car. Wouldn't trade it for the world. Hard as hell but the accomplishment, and satisfaction was/is unequaled. Remember the old saying: What dosen't kill you will only make you stronger? If you weren't tearing down alot you knew you needed to work some more. At least you knew what your goal was and how to achieve it.

And that last part about the USCN is very true. USCN: It wasn't perfect. Hot as hell. But it was one good time! With a hooking track. All those that helped to put this on were racers and it was a racer's race. Not this watered down crap that we have shoved down our throat with a new change or rule of the week.

Charley Downing · 07-25-2008, 02:05 AM

Mike if NHRA did away with wagons I would just build something different. Stock and Superstock cars are best of the best. These classes are not cheep to run and If money is the issue don't race a class car. Stock and Superstock are not for everyone and that is what makes it not a bracket race.

07-24-2008, 01:52 PM	#1
Dwight Southerland VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Arkansas - In the middle of everything. Posts: 1,996 Likes: 63 Liked 756 Times in 189 Posts	Re: Some random thoughts Excellent post, Mike. You addressed the "rightness" rationale of the way Indy was run originally. kudos!! Another reality that most people would not be aware of is part of the point you made about all the class winners being torn down. Only the winner or runner-up in class earned a spot in the eliminator. The winner had to be torn down. If he failed, the runner-up was then torn down. If neither were found legal, then no one from that class was in the eliminator. This was a way to keep pressure on racers to be legal. The other factor in that equation was that Indy had the biggest payout of any race of the season by a lot. Now, that is not the case, especially since class win payout has dwindled. I won $1000+ for class wins in the 1970s, which would be lots more than that in today's dollars, so there was real incentive to go to Indy to win class legitimately. All of those factors made up an atmosphere that gave glory to Indy class wins. So many of the changes that have been made to "enhance" the race experience (including qualifiers in the eliminator race, restrictions on the definition of a class win, added events, limited tear downs, etc.) have actually eroded class racing as a result. It has been a gradual change, like the frog in the pot of water on a stove. Leadership has missed the point all along. There is a lot of call for the 128 low qualifiers as an equitable answer. That has a performance element attached to it, it seems, so many would agree that is the "right" way. However, since qualifying is based upon a performance against a mostly arbitrary standard, the performances are more politically defined than actual. At least a class winner has won a contest to qualify. If no one chooses to participate in a given class, it is not the competitor's responsibility to bear; it is the organization that hosts the contest who should bear that responsibility. If the PGA was controlled by a rule set that allowed handicap or scratch golfers to participate in their tournaments, would it then make sense to disqualify a participant who won the tournament playing off his handicap because his score was too low?? No. But that is analgous to what is happening now. Participation in the March Madness NCAA basketball tournament is not determined by who has the best stats; it is about winning games. If they prevent class winners from racing in a class eliminator, it makes more sense to me to qualify purely based on raw ET and run a bracket race rather than claim classes. Where is the USCN when you want it???

07-24-2008, 02:34 PM	#2
Lynn A McCarty Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Plainfield (INDY) Indiana Posts: 468 Likes: 1 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Some random thoughts Mike is probably right, we did feel "bumped" a couple of years ago when a single car running not even 5 under got to run in the show, and we had to go home. I think we qualified in the 90's or low 100's, and ended up like 8th alternate. (Stacy was so depressed he went home and fell asleep, then they called him and Phil was burning up the phone trying to get him to the track. You see they had never used 8th alternate before that anyone knew.) He had spun trying to beat Wilkes(who was about 2 tenths faster) for class first round of class (usually the fastest run of Indy), and the field went around him as everyone picked up and he didnt. I also feel for the class car that is a 100% legit combo with no after market parts, high horsepower ratings. This is exacerbated by trying to qualify against cars that have all replacement castings, bogus combo, inappropriate HP ratings, and bogus intake runner cc's. Did you know there are engines below and just over 300 cubic inches that are so bogus their published intake runners are bigger than most Pontiac, Olds, and Buick 455's? There really are in my opinion nearly equal substantive and legitimate issues on both sides. __________________ Lynn A McCarty 3470 SS Last edited by Lynn A McCarty; 07-24-2008 at 02:38 PM.

07-24-2008, 05:36 PM	#4
Randall Klein Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska Posts: 785 Likes: 45 Liked 316 Times in 67 Posts	Re: Some random thoughts Two thoughts: when Dwight posts, people should listen...he is one of about a dozen that sets the Gold Standard for insightful historical perspective Second, to Beth & Alex...I know the first USCN about killed off 'ol Alex, agree or disagree with him, but he let it all hang out to try to offer an alternative to the "way we were". IF, a USCN part 2 becomes a reality, and IF its held somewhere in the middle of the country, say Joliet, Earlville or Topeka, my company will be one of the first to post $.

07-24-2008, 07:14 PM	#5
Dennis P Chapman VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Toms River NJ Posts: 1,594 Likes: 409 Liked 53 Times in 25 Posts	Re: Some random thoughts Hey Fred You should shut your mouth you have nothing better to do then keep track of what Art, Jim, and myself race. Well the reason I haven't my wife was battling cancer she passed away in December 2007. And what Bill Belden put your money where your mouth is. __________________ Dennis P Chapman 1904 STK NHRA National Record Holder Car Owner.

07-24-2008, 07:50 PM	#6
Jim Wahl Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Central Florida Posts: 5,843 Likes: 663 Liked 682 Times in 128 Posts	Re: Some random thoughts And Fred, not that it is any of your business but I will not be at Indy, probably ever again. I have a bone disease called MDS (google it) and would be physically unable to do Indy. Feel better now asshole! Jim __________________ Jim Wahl....NHRA #2239 S/SS - IHRA # 8 Stock, D2 Stock Champion (forever I guess) 2019 Baby Gators Stock Champion 2009 D2 National Open Stock Champion 1981 D2 West Palm Beach LDRS SS Runner Up Past President, Southern Stock / Super Stock Association.

07-25-2008, 02:05 AM	#8
Charley Downing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 760 Likes: 16 Liked 616 Times in 87 Posts	Re: Some random thoughts Mike if NHRA did away with wagons I would just build something different. Stock and Superstock cars are best of the best. These classes are not cheep to run and If money is the issue don't race a class car. Stock and Superstock are not for everyone and that is what makes it not a bracket race.