S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Urraco

The bad part of SS, the way it is now, is you can work your butt off to try and go fast just to give it away with the shoepolish to someone who could care less about going fast and are just in it for the bracket race.

I absolutely agree! Stock? I don't don't have one, so don't care. Super Stock indexes are way too soft. Who can't run over 1/2 under in Super Stock? If an average Stocker can come over and run under, the indexes are way too soft. Guess it's nice for them to be able to still race national events where SS runs instead of Stock. Some of them are fast enough to run under the SS indexes if lowered 1/2 sec.

There is a place for guys that can't make one run, or don't want to bother testing between races to get faster (Not all gains costs money.), but just want to charge the battery and go race where you don't have to be fast. It is called bracket racing.

I still think the higher qualified SUPER STOCKER should get lane choice instead of a coin toss.
Stock? I don't have one, so don't care how they do it.

[Ron Ortiz]

Alan, let me correct my trigger theory. What I meant was that they should eliminate the trigger and the evaluation number. The people that are trying to avoid the 1.14 thing should be allowed to run it out. Get rid of this "number" that is holding back racers from doing what they really want to, that is to go fast. The system that is in place now could work if applied correctly. But, there are too many that are holding back because of a HP hit that are messing the system up. So, if you eliminate the "triggers", cars can go fast, competition will get better, and there will be a better view of the combos that might need an adjustment. During this free for all period NHRA should be accumulating data such as incrimental times to do a fair evaluation of adjustments in the future. But with people holding back NHRA cannot judge fairly due to tarnished data. After about a year of this NHRA can then come up with a master realignment of HP factors, and then go back to the system that is in place now due to accurate data. As long as there is a number to avoid there will be inaccurate data.

Art, Ouija boards, dart boards, personal vendetas, and last but far from least WHINERS, CRYBABIES and the like. Aren't they doing that now?

Ron Ortiz
U/SA dart boards, I like that

[art leong]

The system now is supposed to have triggers. And from what I've seen it seems to be fair. There are instances that the old personal vendetta still is used. My old car comes to mind 152 hp one day 165 the next. A math wizard I'm not, But 152 times 3.25% doesn't equal 13. Thats voodoo math at its finest.
Most of the guys on here commented "well did it really hurt you"
My statement is now if you go 1.40 under and get factored "does it really hurt you".
At least you control your own fate..

[Ed Wright]

[QUOTE=OLD INJUN;82482]Why don't we see any a through e stock guys complaining? QUOTE]


Seems like the lower class Stock guys are the ones that start whining, crying, and making derogatory coments about other's intelect, when guys talk about going more performance based. I was suprised to see my index was 2/10th higher in 1998. Why in the world did they raise them? Already soft. When I quit first time in 1979 they weren't that soft. It's getting more like the old AHRA, used to be: too many classes (many guys would run classes with few-to-no other entrys) and too-soft standards. Lots of tire smoke at the finish line.

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

Who can't run over 1/2 under in Super Stock? If an average Stocker can come over and run under, the indexes are way too soft.

(Raises hand) A business partner of mine and I built an S-10 a few years back, and despite continued work, many combinations of components, and a lot of money, it's still an index runner.

If an average Stocker can come over and run under, the indexes are way too soft. Guess it's nice for them to be able to still race national events where SS runs instead of Stock. Some of them are fast enough to run under the SS indexes if lowered 1/2 sec.

An Stocker running -.50 under the Super Stock index is an AVERAGE Stocker?

I still think the higher qualified SUPER STOCKER should get lane choice instead of a coin toss.

I wouldn't have a problem with that.


Here's a simple idea that would help out the AHFS a little bit. Why not denote both a minimum AND a maximum on the weight sticker? In my opinion, if a car weighs enough to run the next lower class, is should have to run that class. People could still run heavy, just not ridiculously heavy.

$.02,

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

(Raises hand) A business partner of mine and I built an S-10 a few years back, and despite continued work, many combinations of components, and a lot of money, it's still an index runner.

Maybe it's the wrong vehicle for the class?

A Stocker running -.50 under the Super Stock index is an AVERAGE Stocker?

Didn't say average. If they dropped the indexes 1/2 second, and a stocker was fast enough to still run under, good for them. Probably would need a "gift", however.

Here's a simple idea that would help out the AHFS a little bit. Why not denote both a minimum AND a maximum on the weight sticker? In my opinion, if a car weighs enough to run the next lower class, is should have to run that class. People could still run heavy, just not ridiculously heavy.

$.02,

I fully agree with that. Seems like a silly way to slow one down anyway. Added weight is just harder on the drivetrain. Taking out ten or fifteen degrees of spark does wonders for slowing one down. They could keep track of everybody's actual weight. Chuck and Wesley need something else to do anyway.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Ron Ortiz

Alan, let me correct my trigger theory. What I meant was that they should eliminate the trigger and the evaluation number. The people that are trying to avoid the 1.14 thing should be allowed to run it out. Get rid of this "number" that is holding back racers from doing what they really want to, that is to go fast. The system that is in place now could work if applied correctly. But, there are too many that are holding back because of a HP hit that are messing the system up. So, if you eliminate the "triggers", cars can go fast, competition will get better, and there will be a better view of the combos that might need an adjustment. During this free for all period NHRA should be accumulating data such as incrimental times to do a fair evaluation of adjustments in the future. But with people holding back NHRA cannot judge fairly due to tarnished data. After about a year of this NHRA can then come up with a master realignment of HP factors, and then go back to the system that is in place now due to accurate data. As long as there is a number to avoid there will be inaccurate data.

Art, Ouija boards, dart boards, personal vendetas, and last but far from least WHINERS, CRYBABIES and the like. Aren't they doing that now?

Ron Ortiz
U/SA dart boards, I like that

Ron,
All you have said is "eliminate the trigger". But yet you say after a while, HP will be adjusted anyway. It STILL doesn't make any sense. It isn't the triggers, it's the HP. You're STILL saying people will get HP for going fast, just not immediately. Anyone who is racing a combination they plan to KEEP racing is going to protect it, whether you "eliminate the trigger" for some vague undetermined period of time. The only thing that MIGHT happen is guys could go out and kill some combinations, sell them before the HP adjustments, and move on.

We run two different 427 engines, and a 350. We definitely plan to continue to run the 427 engines. We may or may not keep the 350, if we keep that car. I can tell you right now that if NHRA were to follow your plan, I sure as Hell would not go run any of those engines far enough under to get HP (yeah, I know the 350 is slow right now). It would be stupid. All your plan does is prolong and postpone, it does not solve anything. In fact, it makes the whole system less open and transparent than it is now.

[Ron Ortiz]

Alan, you're kind of on the right track. The HP adjustments will be based on more accurate information. Eliminating the triggers allows for everyone to run hard and increase competition. Yes, you are right there will be HP adjustments down the road, but the data accumulated will be across the board. As it stands now people are holding back so much that it isn't allowing the current system to function correctly. In addition it is such a deterrent to a racer who has alot of potential but is afraid of using it. What I am proposing is simple. It is not of any good to lower indexes, whether you think they are soft or not. Indexes are set to attract new competitors, they still have to work hard to reach it and continue to do so to run way under. But then you hit a brick wall where your afraid to go any faster. That is not the true meaning of the sport. NHRA kind of opened the door by only allowing the fastest 128 at Indy. Now if you eliminate the triggers we can really see the fastest 128. It is not going to hurt anybody, it will only benefit everybody. If somebody wants to hold back all year to protect their combo down the road thats fine, but in the meantime everybody else will be having fun. In the end the protectors will still get refactored due to the more accurate data that NHRA will have acquired. It basically is a proposition to let everyone cut it loose and then later we will adjust with viable data to support such adjustments. You'll be surprised at all the holding back that will be set free.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA

[55 Chevy]

Good post Ron.

Let's take for example two same combination U/SA cars,one consistently going 1.39 under,the other freshman right on the index. We lower the indexes 3/10's across the board and leave the trigger where it was. Now the slow guy is immediately 3/10's off with the new drop in the number & lets just say the fast guy opens his up & is 2/10's quicker than he ever was. N.H.R.A. sees this & soon adds say ten horsepower to that combination. The fast guy is still very fast & near the top of the ladder (& got horsepower as he should) but the slow guy is even farther off since his car also gets the added weight. He will have to "work harder" to get back where he was but 4/10's is a lot to get back just to be competitive again. Chances are the slow guy will get hit repeatedly by the faster car & will find himself always chasing the index.
As a result the fast U/SA car will now qualify a bit lower and the slow guy will not be able to compete.