Cylinder Head Runner Volumes

Rich Biebel · 12-20-2008, 07:23 PM

I don't run Stock any longer for my own reasons and I won't bore you all with why that is so. I have poured a number of intake runners in my engine shop days. Mostly big and small block Chevys that were untouched. I also poured the heads that were on my last stocker...a late model LT-1 with aluminum heads. Lets just say that my experience is that all the heads I poured were not near the posted NHRA numbers, How did they get those numbers in the first place one would have to ask. Especially if the rules say NO port modifications allowed including acid porting or what I might call "selective rusting techniques". Aluminum does not rust so I also have to ask how a head spec can be close to 10 CC's larger than an unmolested head? The heads used to establish the accepted numbers were modified in my opinion. That is old news......

Ed Wright · 12-20-2008, 08:55 PM

Rich, I did a set of quicky LT1 SS heads myself last spring when I got a wild hair to go SS racing again (In like three weeks, I'm not real bright.). I had two sets of salvage yard castings, all poured very close to each other. NHRA said 175 cc intakes, all of mine were very close to 170. Exhausts were about 5 small also. I can't imagine how a set could be 165 cc. Even a valve job would not make them that much smaller.
Had the intake gasket surface been cut? Were your end chambers smaller than the centers? All four of mine were, like over 1/2 cc.

Sending one set to Dave Layer was a very good move. 40 ftlbs better than mine.

Rich Biebel · 12-21-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

Rich, I did a set of quicky LT1 SS heads myself last spring when I got a wild hair to go SS racing again (In like three weeks, I'm not real bright.). I had two sets of salvage yard castings, all poured very close to each other. NHRA said 175 cc intakes, all of mine were very close to 170. Exhausts were about 5 small also. I can't imagine how a set could be 165 cc. Even a valve job would not make them that much smaller.
Had the intake gasket surface been cut? Were your end chambers smaller than the centers? All four of mine were, like over 1/2 cc.

Sending one set to Dave Layer was a very good move. 40 ftlbs better than mine.

Ed...I am going by memory on the LT-1 heads and they came up about 7 or 8 cc's under the max on the intake side. Those heads came with the car I bought as a roller. They were prepped by Heads-up and I just puffed them up very lighty and rechecked all the chambers for CC's. Straight stemmed valves, not undercut and they came with the heads. Being a "newby" at the time at building this Stocker engine...I relied on some parts and help from Woodro and I was able to run some decent numbers. I needed a man like you to help me tune the ECU as I see you are very skilled at that.........Hi Billy......

Bub Whitaker · 12-20-2008, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

I don't run Stock any longer for my own reasons and I won't bore you all with why that is so. I have poured a number of intake runners in my engine shop days. Mostly big and small block Chevys that were untouched.The heads used to establish the accepted numbers were modified in my opinion. That is old news......

I also poured the heads that were on my last stocker...a late model LT-1 with aluminum heads. Lets just say that my experience is that all the heads I poured were not near the posted NHRA numbers, How did they get those numbers in the first place one would have to ask. Especially if the rules say NO port modifications allowed including acid porting or what I might call "selective rusting techniques". Aluminum does not rust so I also have to ask how a head spec can be close to 10 CC's larger than an unmolested head? QUOTE FROM RICH

Exactley... where did they get these #'s... for super stock, no problem make em bigger... if they are bigger than SS make em smaller by welding or epoxy... for stock, if there bigger than what you need and you cant find any cores that small cause there aren't any... DON'T RACE THAT COMBO..

Billy Nees · 12-21-2008, 08:20 AM

Bub, you're my hero! Kiss, kiss

Billy Nees · 12-21-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bub Whitaker

I also poured the heads that were on my last stocker...a late model LT-1 with aluminum heads. Lets just say that my experience is that all the heads I poured were not near the posted NHRA numbers, How did they get those numbers in the first place one would have to ask. Especially if the rules say NO port modifications allowed including acid porting or what I might call "selective rusting techniques". Aluminum does not rust so I also have to ask how a head spec can be close to 10 CC's larger than an unmolested head? QUOTE FROM RICH

Exactley... where did they get these #'s... for super stock, no problem make em bigger... if they are smaller than SS make em smaller by welding or epoxy... for stock, if there smaller than what you have and you cant find any cores that small cause there aren't any... DON'T RACE THAT COMBO..

Or give NHRA an unmolested head, let them pour it and fix the number. Or have LT-1 heads become so rare already that NHRA has to accept the big number or allow a "replacement" aftermarket head. Or pick another excuse, lets see, the collectors have bought up all of the cores, racers have modified all of the cores already, NHRA is just picking on all of MY cores, my dog pissed on my cores and that's why they're so big, they got accidently buried in my back yard and salted 10 years ago, I'm way too busy making tons of money so I have to rely on other people and they screwed up or the best one, my lawyer says that it's OK because none of the NHRA tech people can be considered "experts" in a court of law.
BTW, while reading this just remember that it was written by a cynical, old crazy man that is snowed in on a hill in central Pa..

Bub Whitaker · 12-21-2008, 12:03 PM

BTW, while reading this just remember that it was written by a cynical, old crazy man that is snowed in on a hill in central Pa..
__________________
Billy Nees 1188 STK

new about the cynical, old... didn't relize your crazy too...

Alan Roehrich · 12-21-2008, 12:41 PM

Bub,
I'm pretty sure you have to be either stupid or crazy to drag race, especially on a sportsman level. And crazy sounds a lot nicer, and somewhat sexier, than stupid.

Billy Nees · 12-21-2008, 01:06 PM

[QUOTE=Alan Roehrich;97157]Bub,
I'mhave to be either stupid or crazy to drag race, especially on a sportsman level. And crazy sounds a lot nicer, and somewhat sexier, than stupid.[/QUOTE pretty sure you ]

Alan, I've always admitted to people that I'm crazy , not stupid!

Dick Butler · 12-21-2008, 01:32 PM

Billy,
Its the Not being Stupid that gets us crossed up with NHRA. They work from the position no one will care what they change. They claim they get their ideas from "input" from the racers. Their actions are purely business and defensive positions instead of from sound technical decisions or long range planning.
I can hardly wait to see their "plan" to incorporate the new Camaro, Mustang and Chrysler into classes.
Dick

12-20-2008, 07:23 PM	#1
Rich Biebel VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern New Jersey suburbs Posts: 2,320 Likes: 25 Liked 557 Times in 217 Posts	Re: Cylinder Head Runner Volumes I don't run Stock any longer for my own reasons and I won't bore you all with why that is so. I have poured a number of intake runners in my engine shop days. Mostly big and small block Chevys that were untouched. I also poured the heads that were on my last stocker...a late model LT-1 with aluminum heads. Lets just say that my experience is that all the heads I poured were not near the posted NHRA numbers, How did they get those numbers in the first place one would have to ask. Especially if the rules say NO port modifications allowed including acid porting or what I might call "selective rusting techniques". Aluminum does not rust so I also have to ask how a head spec can be close to 10 CC's larger than an unmolested head? The heads used to establish the accepted numbers were modified in my opinion. That is old news...... __________________ Rich Biebel S/C 1479 Stock 147R

12-20-2008, 08:55 PM	#2
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 390 Times in 170 Posts	Re: Cylinder Head Runner Volumes Rich, I did a set of quicky LT1 SS heads myself last spring when I got a wild hair to go SS racing again (In like three weeks, I'm not real bright.). I had two sets of salvage yard castings, all poured very close to each other. NHRA said 175 cc intakes, all of mine were very close to 170. Exhausts were about 5 small also. I can't imagine how a set could be 165 cc. Even a valve job would not make them that much smaller. Had the intake gasket surface been cut? Were your end chambers smaller than the centers? All four of mine were, like over 1/2 cc. Sending one set to Dave Layer was a very good move. 40 ftlbs better than mine. __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA

12-21-2008, 08:20 AM	#5
Billy Nees VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: On a hilltop in Pa. Posts: 4,512 Likes: 3,621 Liked 7,909 Times in 1,754 Posts	Re: Cylinder Head Runner Volumes Bub, you're my hero! Kiss, kiss __________________ Billy Nees 1188 STK, SS I'm not spending 100K to win 2K

12-21-2008, 12:03 PM	#7
Bub Whitaker Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dayton, MD Posts: 222 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Cylinder Head Runner Volumes BTW, while reading this just remember that it was written by a cynical, old crazy man that is snowed in on a hill in central Pa.. __________________ Billy Nees 1188 STK new about the cynical, old... didn't relize your crazy too... Last edited by Bub Whitaker; 12-21-2008 at 12:04 PM. Reason: bingo... post 100 ... I'm a senior member

12-21-2008, 12:41 PM	#8
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,139 Likes: 1,620 Liked 1,929 Times in 434 Posts	Re: Cylinder Head Runner Volumes Bub, I'm pretty sure you have to be either stupid or crazy to drag race, especially on a sportsman level. And crazy sounds a lot nicer, and somewhat sexier, than stupid. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

12-21-2008, 01:06 PM	#9
Billy Nees VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: On a hilltop in Pa. Posts: 4,512 Likes: 3,621 Liked 7,909 Times in 1,754 Posts	Re: Cylinder Head Runner Volumes [QUOTE=Alan Roehrich;97157]Bub, I'mhave to be either stupid or crazy to drag race, especially on a sportsman level. And crazy sounds a lot nicer, and somewhat sexier, than stupid.[/QUOTE pretty sure you ] Alan, I've always admitted to people that I'm crazy , not stupid! __________________ Billy Nees 1188 STK, SS I'm not spending 100K to win 2K

12-21-2008, 01:32 PM	#10
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: Cylinder Head Runner Volumes Billy, Its the Not being Stupid that gets us crossed up with NHRA. They work from the position no one will care what they change. They claim they get their ideas from "input" from the racers. Their actions are purely business and defensive positions instead of from sound technical decisions or long range planning. I can hardly wait to see their "plan" to incorporate the new Camaro, Mustang and Chrysler into classes. Dick