Stick vs. Auto index - Page 2

Jared Jordan · 10-08-2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LB Racing 3179

How about in Super Stock Modified where the automatic cars get up to a 250lbs. weight break and run on the same index as the stick cars. Every record in Super Stock Modified is held by automatic cars.

The quickest SS/AM car in the country (Scott Gove) runs a stick.

A good comparison is the SS/AH cars of the Westcotts. At a recent test session Jr. went 8.50 @ 155 with the auto and Sr. went 8.51 @ 158 with the stick. Same track, same day, same air. I know that the 4-speed is 40 lbs lighter but it also doesn't use the radial.

Superfan1 · 10-09-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Jordan

The quickest SS/AM car in the country (Scott Gove) runs a stick.

A good comparison is the SS/AH cars of the Westcotts. At a recent test session Jr. went 8.50 @ 155 with the auto and Sr. went 8.51 @ 158 with the stick. Same track, same day, same air. I know that the 4-speed is 40 lbs lighter but it also doesn't use the radial.

Scott Gove is the quickest SS/AM on the planet, but Paul Ricci is the record holder at 8.19@164.55 with an automatic. He set it at the D-1 race at Atco this past weekend. Scott Gove has the potential to be the second SSer to run in the 7s but he was at Atco and didn't set the record. I don't know if he had problems but he didn't get the record. If he is at the Dutch Classic and the air is good; watch out!
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

bsa633 · 10-09-2008, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superfan1

Scott Gove is the quickest SS/AM on the planet, but Paul Ricci is the record holder at 8.19@164.55 with an automatic. He set it at the D-1 race at Atco this past weekend. Scott Gove has the potential to be the second SSer to run in the 7s but he was at Atco and didn't set the record. I don't know if he had problems but he didn't get the record. If he is at the Dutch Classic and the air is good; watch out!
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

I always thougnt that automatics had an weightbreak in modified classes,are they gone nowdays?

Superfan1 · 10-09-2008, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsa633

I always thougnt that automatics had an weightbreak in modified classes,are they gone nowdays?

Automatics still have a weight break in the modified classes; cars with a fully automatic trans can remove up to 5% or 250 lbs., whichever is less, from regular class weight. This is what makes Scott Gove's stick car so impressive. If I remember correctly, at the Dutch Classic last year in air that was not good; he ran 8.02 in SS/AM. If he is at the Classic this year and the air is as good as it usually is at the end of October; a 7 second run is very possible.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

Superfan1 · 10-09-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Jordan

The quickest SS/AM car in the country (Scott Gove) runs a stick.

A good comparison is the SS/AH cars of the Westcotts. At a recent test session Jr. went 8.50 @ 155 with the auto and Sr. went 8.51 @ 158 with the stick. Same track, same day, same air. I know that the 4-speed is 40 lbs lighter but it also doesn't use the radial.

Interesting comparison; for the last 2 years the Westcotts have been trying to get Sr's stick car to 60' and 330' as well as Jr's automatic. It has always been obvious that Sr's car ran great mph, but Jr's car ran quicker ET. Now Jr's car is up for sale. and he is building a stick car. It took 2 years to get the stick car to ET well enough to convince the Westcotts to build a second stick car. I would think that this supports the premise that, with all other things being equal, the automatic is quicker and the stick is faster.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

Z28-69 · 10-10-2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Jordan

The quickest SS/AM car in the country (Scott Gove) runs a stick.

A good comparison is the SS/AH cars of the Westcotts. At a recent test session Jr. went 8.50 @ 155 with the auto and Sr. went 8.51 @ 158 with the stick. Same track, same day, same air. I know that the 4-speed is 40 lbs lighter but it also doesn't use the radial.

I was at that race.....he had a broken valve spring when he ran the .50. The next run he expected to run in the .40's

JRyan · 10-08-2008, 09:19 PM

Jeff,
The records are not the standard in all cases. Look at Nitro Joes stats over the last year. There are a few runs that are faster then current records. The SS/K record is a pefect example. The record is about .40 slower then it could be. Records mean nothing to NHRA so most don't worry about setting them. In several classes the fastest run of the year is within a .10 but what do you do about the classes that are .2-.4 faster.
Nobody has answered the question what do you do with the couple classes where the stick is at an incredible advantage. I run both stick and automatics so I don't think I have an agenda one way or the other. Our stick car doesn't have really any of the newest tricks yet it's capable of running with the majority of the automatic cars in the same class.
Last year there were more SS/JA cars then there were stick cars in all of the traditional SS classes. Yet between SS and GT classes nine times the stick car had a faster best actual ET. Now these were all done in different weather conditions and altitudes but that gives you a more broad persceptive then looking at the record page. It is feasable currently in several classes but you can't make the assumption that sticks and autos run the same in A/S so let's combine all of them.
Plus tell me this if they were to combine classes what do you do with cars that either didn't come as a stick or those that didn't come as an auto? Personally I'd love to make my Olds a stick car.

Rick Ryan

SS Engine Guy · 10-08-2008, 10:34 PM

I think if you want to run a stick (which I think is cool) then run a stick or if you think that an auto is more suited to you then run an auto. Enough with the "rule change of the week". If you want to combine them then let the stick have the magnetic release and the auto the full lock up converter. And let both SPEND MORE MONEY.

Jeff Lee · 10-09-2008, 12:04 AM

Regarding Stock,
First off, I never said "combine classes".
Second, I never suggested a rule change, I suggested parity on the indexes. That's not a rule change.
I really don't know how to make it any easier to understand.

JR brought up SS/JA. Coincedentely I was talking to my SS/J buddy Rob Youngblood tonight. He recently raced and ran the same ET as Don Little in SS/JA. Don Little qualified #1, Youngblood qualified #9. Another racer commented to Youngblood "how can you run the same time and be 8 positions apart?" Youngblood said "because there is a two tenths difference on the index!"
I think that example pretty much sums it up. Two cars both on a 11# weight break and one gets a two tenths advantage by running an automatic trans. Since SS Engine Guy brought up money, tell us how much money Youngblood would have to spend to find the extra 40 HP needed to obtain that #1 qualifying position? I'll betcha you would like that customer!

And yes, I would be all for Superstock (not Stock) allowing a magnetic clutch release to compete against the trans-brakes. The performance of the stick car would not change ANY so there would be no need for allowing lock-up converters. While not offering a performance advantage, the stick cars with a clutch release would be more deadly on the line. And I guess that would frighten those with trans-brakes that have unlimited adjustments quite similar in application to a delay box. And I suppose that's where the "leave the rules alone" mantra starts kicking in!

JR,
I hate to tell you but every run in Nitro Joe's is not neccessarily a legal run down the track. A record is set, authenticated and published by NHRA. And if a racer feels the need to build a vehicle which will run under a record he should be more than happy to prove the validity of his runs.

Scott Loge · 10-09-2008, 12:37 AM

Are you guys for real?!?! Go by the NHRA records and not take into account where or what the air was? Factored track or non-factored track?!?! These are all factors for all cars. Stick, auto do not matter it is a choice. When i raced I ran G/Sa at Pomona and went 11:19 in F/Sa. Pomona is a good track with great air in the winter. I go to Boise and add 60 pounds to run G/Sa still 40 heavy and run within .oo1 of G/record at 10.99. My car was manhandled in class several times by several cars. These are facts with run slips to prove. !!!!

Get off the box and leave the class alone!!!

10-08-2008, 09:19 PM	#7
JRyan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aberdeen SD Posts: 645 Likes: 30 Liked 112 Times in 31 Posts	Re: Stick vs. Auto index Jeff, The records are not the standard in all cases. Look at Nitro Joes stats over the last year. There are a few runs that are faster then current records. The SS/K record is a pefect example. The record is about .40 slower then it could be. Records mean nothing to NHRA so most don't worry about setting them. In several classes the fastest run of the year is within a .10 but what do you do about the classes that are .2-.4 faster. Nobody has answered the question what do you do with the couple classes where the stick is at an incredible advantage. I run both stick and automatics so I don't think I have an agenda one way or the other. Our stick car doesn't have really any of the newest tricks yet it's capable of running with the majority of the automatic cars in the same class. Last year there were more SS/JA cars then there were stick cars in all of the traditional SS classes. Yet between SS and GT classes nine times the stick car had a faster best actual ET. Now these were all done in different weather conditions and altitudes but that gives you a more broad persceptive then looking at the record page. It is feasable currently in several classes but you can't make the assumption that sticks and autos run the same in A/S so let's combine all of them. Plus tell me this if they were to combine classes what do you do with cars that either didn't come as a stick or those that didn't come as an auto? Personally I'd love to make my Olds a stick car. Rick Ryan

10-08-2008, 10:34 PM	#8
SS Engine Guy Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: usa Posts: 256 Likes: 1 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Stick vs. Auto index I think if you want to run a stick (which I think is cool) then run a stick or if you think that an auto is more suited to you then run an auto. Enough with the "rule change of the week". If you want to combine them then let the stick have the magnetic release and the auto the full lock up converter. And let both SPEND MORE MONEY.

10-09-2008, 12:37 AM	#10
Scott Loge Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Livermore,Ca Posts: 334 Likes: 15 Liked 145 Times in 32 Posts	Re: Stick vs. Auto index Are you guys for real?!?! Go by the NHRA records and not take into account where or what the air was? Factored track or non-factored track?!?! These are all factors for all cars. Stick, auto do not matter it is a choice. When i raced I ran G/Sa at Pomona and went 11:19 in F/Sa. Pomona is a good track with great air in the winter. I go to Boise and add 60 pounds to run G/Sa still 40 heavy and run within .oo1 of G/record at 10.99. My car was manhandled in class several times by several cars. These are facts with run slips to prove. !!!! Get off the box and leave the class alone!!!

10-09-2008, 12:04 AM	#9
Jeff Lee VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Anthem, Arizona Posts: 2,766 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Stick vs. Auto index Regarding Stock, First off, I never said "combine classes". Second, I never suggested a rule change, I suggested parity on the indexes. That's not a rule change. I really don't know how to make it any easier to understand. JR brought up SS/JA. Coincedentely I was talking to my SS/J buddy Rob Youngblood tonight. He recently raced and ran the same ET as Don Little in SS/JA. Don Little qualified #1, Youngblood qualified #9. Another racer commented to Youngblood "how can you run the same time and be 8 positions apart?" Youngblood said "because there is a two tenths difference on the index!" I think that example pretty much sums it up. Two cars both on a 11# weight break and one gets a two tenths advantage by running an automatic trans. Since SS Engine Guy brought up money, tell us how much money Youngblood would have to spend to find the extra 40 HP needed to obtain that #1 qualifying position? I'll betcha you would like that customer! And yes, I would be all for Superstock (not Stock) allowing a magnetic clutch release to compete against the trans-brakes. The performance of the stick car would not change ANY so there would be no need for allowing lock-up converters. While not offering a performance advantage, the stick cars with a clutch release would be more deadly on the line. And I guess that would frighten those with trans-brakes that have unlimited adjustments quite similar in application to a delay box. And I suppose that's where the "leave the rules alone" mantra starts kicking in! JR, I hate to tell you but every run in Nitro Joe's is not neccessarily a legal run down the track. A record is set, authenticated and published by NHRA. And if a racer feels the need to build a vehicle which will run under a record he should be more than happy to prove the validity of his runs. __________________ Jeff Lee 7494 D/S '70 AMX