Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers - Page 4

PONTIAC'S REVENGE · 10-08-2009, 01:24 PM

Al,
My friend just completed a Max Wedge 64 Belvedere. This is a great example, according to my friend, Chrysler makes a replacement head to this combo already but they use aftermarket companies to cast them I understand. The original was a #518 casting and the legal replacement is a #518m. So you see some of the "participating manufacturers" are already in the aftermarket arena. This keeps this oldy but cool combo alive!!! We tease him sometimes and call him "Mr Supercede"

We had an original set of 518 heads and they were good but not nearly as the revamped 518m. Bischoff made almost 800hp with that motor on the dyno last year. I think with some wideband tuning it'd go well over 800hp's. U should have heard this thing in the dyno it was WAY WICKED!!!!

What a cool factory race engine two fours giant ports buncha compression.

I had some respectable super stock racers tell me the combo was dead!! Not true, I think this car will go 9.50's in SS/DA If i can get him to lay into it a little.

I agree with Mike and the huge point is... how do the dead manufacturers like Pontiac Buick Olds AMC dont get any of that without the aftermarket companies???

Or any other combo that doesn't have a supercede or replacement that's hard to find or high dollar. Chrysler could stop making this 518m head, where would he be then??? What justification is there for others; I dont know somebody tell me. I also agree with Mike's point that the original combos need to be left alone for the guys already running them. The replacements need to come with horsepower if allowed especially if they're "better".

Stacy

X-TECH MAN · 10-08-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PONTIAC'S REVENGE

Al,
My friend just completed a Max Wedge 64 Belvedere.

I had some respectable super stock racers tell me the combo was dead!! Not true, I think this car will go 9.50's in SS/DA If i can get him to lay into it a little.

Stacy

After all of that work and money spent on the Max Wedge the new blown Mustangs will still out run him with a stock elim. (?) engine. Is that traditional S/S racing?

Jeff Lee · 10-08-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

After all of that work and money spent on the Max Wedge the new blown Mustangs will still out run him with a stock elim. (?) engine. Is that traditional S/S racing?

The "standard" seems to be 5 HP penalty to use an aftermarket type head. I surely wouldn't have a problem with that.

9.50's in SS/DA? I'm hoping to go 9.60's in SS/H w/ my old AMC heads....

Stephen & Horace Johnson · 10-08-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

The "standard" seems to be 5 HP penalty to use an aftermarket type head. I surely wouldn't have a problem with that.

9.50's in SS/DA? I'm hoping to go 9.60's in SS/H w/ my old AMC heads....

I'd use that word "standard" careful when you say 5HP on aftermarket heads

Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2167
SS/D 427 Ford FairlaneNHRA-IHRA

PONTIAC'S REVENGE · 10-08-2009, 03:30 PM

Well,
I think the power adder engines are a different thread dont you?.

The real point is the guy is out racing and mixin it up instead of home dead in the garage because its the combo he grew up with and loves it. It may not be the fastest combo but its rated 415hp!!! That's alot of hp's for an inline valve motor wt a 208 intake valve.

Hat's off to bischoff for getn r done!!!

PS the replacement head flowed way better bout 320cfm intakes at 600" see pics on lynn's photo gallery

Now only if we can get the car out west so his brother will put his foot in it!!!!!

stacy

SPS · 10-08-2009, 04:37 PM

Stacey, let me get this straight, its OK for you to use aftermarket aluminum heads (and block) for your Pontiac, but not for everybody else.

Never mind the cost of the diminishing supply of castings as well as the internal corrosion making them prone to leaking, the work involved to be competitive ( $7500++) and the near impossibility of repair makes all our Super Stock heads more expensive than Modified/Comp stuff.

Personally, I believe that an across-the-board allowable aluminum head would reduce the longterm cost in Super Stock. I know that Edelbrock has been lobbying NHRA for a number of years for this and had offered to make whats missing.

Remember, there are still cc specs for both chambers and runners that would have to be adhered to.

For those doubters,this will not obsolete the iron heads already out ther, just advance the class.

FJ

69ss/rs · 10-08-2009, 09:29 PM

Al Kuehl, I agree with you about trying to keep the combos as close to stock as you can, but NHRA needs to be consistent with the replacement heads. The problem I have is that if they start mixing and matching iron and aluminum heads how do you start applying hp to the various combos and still be fair. But if the replacement heads are all made from the same material be it iron or aluminum that problem is eliminated. The thing is that most of the replacement heads that are being approved are aluminum, so why not continue to go in that direction.

PONTIAC'S REVENGE · 10-09-2009, 09:53 AM

Gentlemen,
These are all good arguments, I think eventually everything will be aftermarket. Whether the factorys come up with it or not it will have to be that way or the old combos will die out. This will insure progression of our sport and also the popularity. Just like the GT cars being introduced to super stock. This kept the manufacturers interested and gave us a identity with the kids coming along. Mixed with the early engines is was a good strategy.

It also kept Super Stock from being called a nostalgia race all the time. Not that nostalgia races are bad but I dont think all of us want to be known as that. I think it has help keep us in the National events instead of NHRA pushing us to all points meets. IT SELLS! U cant beat indentification for car promotion. Half these kids are moving to import wizbangers we call them. What a shame!!

I saw a great matchup with James Caro with his new hemi powered modified GT Stratus against a 69 Cuda or Dart somewhere cant rmbr who but it was way cool!! The announcers could have really exploited that on the starting line but they didn't. New hemi n old hemi!!!!!

NHRA has made it clear to us that they dont like racers to have to spend exorbitant prices for heads just to run a favorite combination because of cost. They would rather us spend the money with there sponsors partners and traveling to enter races, my guess is.

NHRA is very strick about gaining performance advantages although it does happen. For example Lynn spent almost 5 years trying to get the aluminum heads approve because of his super duty heads are so rare and expensive. NHRA refused us the aluminum on this motor combination because his combo was 102cc combustion chamber and the edlebrocks were 85cc. The official said they weren't gonna give us that much chamber to "play with". So he spend all that time and may have to switch combos which i know he cant afford with two boys in college and a blond wife.

Your thoughts?
Stacy McCarty
GTAA

X-TECH MAN · 10-09-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PONTIAC'S REVENGE

Gentlemen,
These are all good arguments, I think eventually everything will be aftermarket. Whether the factorys come up with it or not it will have to be that way or the old combos will die out. This will insure progression of our sport and also the popularity. Just like the GT cars being introduced to super stock. This kept the manufacturers interested and gave us a identity with the kids coming along. Mixed with the early engines is was a good strategy.

It also kept Super Stock from being called a nostalgia race all the time. Not that nostalgia races are bad but I dont think all of us want to be know as that. I think it has help keep us in the National events instead of NHRA pushing us to all points meets. IT SELLS! U can beat indentification for car promotion. Half these kids are moving to import wizbangers we call them. What a shame!!

I saw a great matchup with James Caro with his new hemi powered modified GT Stratus against a 69 Cuda or Dart somewhere cant rmbr who but it was way cool!! The announcers could have really exploited that on the starting line but they didn't. New hemi n old hemi!!!!!

NHRA has made it clear to us that they dont like racers to have to spend exorbitant prices for heads just to run a favorite combination because of cost. They would rather us spend the money with there sponsors partners and traveling to enter races, my guess is.

NHRA is very strick about gaining performance advantages although it does happen. For example Lynn spent almost 5 years trying to get the aluminum heads approve because of his super duty heads are so rare and expensive. NHRA refused us the aluminum on this motor combination because his combo was 102cc combustion chamber and the edlebrocks were 85cc. The official said they weren't gonna give us that much chamber to "play with". So he spend all that time and may have to switch combos which i know he cant afford with two boys in college and a blond wife.

Your thoughts?
Stacy McCarty
GTAA

Get rid of the wife and let the boys work their way thru college ? Just kidding before anyone goes off. Lynn knows me pretty well. Besides getting rid of the wife would cost more than keeping her.....LOL. OH....you mean the alum. heads.........Why cant Edelbrock cast the heads with 102 and larger combustion chambers? I seems to me it would be an easy fix for a company casting so many different head combinations. They even started casting 409 heads so whats so hard about it for a company already doing this type of work? Then you could re sumit the request and they should get the stamp of approval. Tell Lynn I said hello.
Terry

X-TECH MAN · 10-09-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Kuehl

I don't want to see any combination's made obsolete because of Head's just make them out of the orginal material if possible , keep the valve size's stock and the Intake , & Ex runner cc's the stock size and the combustion cvhamber size to spec's . These guy's that are complainng already have an alternative head in the World Product's 4360 & 4361 they have nothing to complain about . All of the World Product's head's that I have worked on also have a better Ex short turn radius so maybe they won't need as much welding on the ex side maybe not any . I have not worked on this exact part number , but I have worked on a lot of SR Torquer's and Sportsman 200's and they have a lot better short turn radius than a 441 or 041 . If I ever get my car back together it is a 350 255 Chevy . There is no reason for an Aluminum head on that combination . Like I said earlier I don't want to see anybodies combination made obsolete just keep the replacement head as close to stock as possible and only use Aluminum as a last resort . I agree the exhaust port on the 401 Chevy head is a joke it is not even close to a 840 or 291 . Also I was told that the small block Ford Aluminum head's get a 10 H.P. hit .
Al

The 441 castings (255 HP and 250 HP 2 barrel) are getting harder and harder to find for someone just starting and the price is getting higher. Unless someone already has a stock pile of these castings its not an easy find. They were only cast for one year and it proved to be one of the most popular combinations besides the 350/300 so they were pretty well used up.

10-08-2009, 01:24 PM	#31
PONTIAC'S REVENGE Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CARMEL, INDIANA Posts: 141 Likes: 69 Liked 48 Times in 18 Posts	Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers Al, My friend just completed a Max Wedge 64 Belvedere. This is a great example, according to my friend, Chrysler makes a replacement head to this combo already but they use aftermarket companies to cast them I understand. The original was a #518 casting and the legal replacement is a #518m. So you see some of the "participating manufacturers" are already in the aftermarket arena. This keeps this oldy but cool combo alive!!! We tease him sometimes and call him "Mr Supercede" We had an original set of 518 heads and they were good but not nearly as the revamped 518m. Bischoff made almost 800hp with that motor on the dyno last year. I think with some wideband tuning it'd go well over 800hp's. U should have heard this thing in the dyno it was WAY WICKED!!!! What a cool factory race engine two fours giant ports buncha compression. I had some respectable super stock racers tell me the combo was dead!! Not true, I think this car will go 9.50's in SS/DA If i can get him to lay into it a little. I agree with Mike and the huge point is... how do the dead manufacturers like Pontiac Buick Olds AMC dont get any of that without the aftermarket companies??? Or any other combo that doesn't have a supercede or replacement that's hard to find or high dollar. Chrysler could stop making this 518m head, where would he be then??? What justification is there for others; I dont know somebody tell me. I also agree with Mike's point that the original combos need to be left alone for the guys already running them. The replacements need to come with horsepower if allowed especially if they're "better". Stacy Last edited by PONTIAC'S REVENGE; 10-08-2009 at 03:40 PM.

10-08-2009, 03:30 PM	#35
PONTIAC'S REVENGE Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CARMEL, INDIANA Posts: 141 Likes: 69 Liked 48 Times in 18 Posts	Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers Well, I think the power adder engines are a different thread dont you?. The real point is the guy is out racing and mixin it up instead of home dead in the garage because its the combo he grew up with and loves it. It may not be the fastest combo but its rated 415hp!!! That's alot of hp's for an inline valve motor wt a 208 intake valve. Hat's off to bischoff for getn r done!!! PS the replacement head flowed way better bout 320cfm intakes at 600" see pics on lynn's photo gallery Now only if we can get the car out west so his brother will put his foot in it!!!!! stacy

10-08-2009, 04:37 PM	#36
SPS Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Cayuga, Canada Posts: 298 Likes: 37 Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers Stacey, let me get this straight, its OK for you to use aftermarket aluminum heads (and block) for your Pontiac, but not for everybody else. Never mind the cost of the diminishing supply of castings as well as the internal corrosion making them prone to leaking, the work involved to be competitive ( $7500++) and the near impossibility of repair makes all our Super Stock heads more expensive than Modified/Comp stuff. Personally, I believe that an across-the-board allowable aluminum head would reduce the longterm cost in Super Stock. I know that Edelbrock has been lobbying NHRA for a number of years for this and had offered to make whats missing. Remember, there are still cc specs for both chambers and runners that would have to be adhered to. For those doubters,this will not obsolete the iron heads already out ther, just advance the class. FJ

10-08-2009, 09:29 PM	#37
69ss/rs Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 82 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers Al Kuehl, I agree with you about trying to keep the combos as close to stock as you can, but NHRA needs to be consistent with the replacement heads. The problem I have is that if they start mixing and matching iron and aluminum heads how do you start applying hp to the various combos and still be fair. But if the replacement heads are all made from the same material be it iron or aluminum that problem is eliminated. The thing is that most of the replacement heads that are being approved are aluminum, so why not continue to go in that direction.

10-09-2009, 09:53 AM	#38
PONTIAC'S REVENGE Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CARMEL, INDIANA Posts: 141 Likes: 69 Liked 48 Times in 18 Posts	Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers Gentlemen, These are all good arguments, I think eventually everything will be aftermarket. Whether the factorys come up with it or not it will have to be that way or the old combos will die out. This will insure progression of our sport and also the popularity. Just like the GT cars being introduced to super stock. This kept the manufacturers interested and gave us a identity with the kids coming along. Mixed with the early engines is was a good strategy. It also kept Super Stock from being called a nostalgia race all the time. Not that nostalgia races are bad but I dont think all of us want to be known as that. I think it has help keep us in the National events instead of NHRA pushing us to all points meets. IT SELLS! U cant beat indentification for car promotion. Half these kids are moving to import wizbangers we call them. What a shame!! I saw a great matchup with James Caro with his new hemi powered modified GT Stratus against a 69 Cuda or Dart somewhere cant rmbr who but it was way cool!! The announcers could have really exploited that on the starting line but they didn't. New hemi n old hemi!!!!! NHRA has made it clear to us that they dont like racers to have to spend exorbitant prices for heads just to run a favorite combination because of cost. They would rather us spend the money with there sponsors partners and traveling to enter races, my guess is. NHRA is very strick about gaining performance advantages although it does happen. For example Lynn spent almost 5 years trying to get the aluminum heads approve because of his super duty heads are so rare and expensive. NHRA refused us the aluminum on this motor combination because his combo was 102cc combustion chamber and the edlebrocks were 85cc. The official said they weren't gonna give us that much chamber to "play with". So he spend all that time and may have to switch combos which i know he cant afford with two boys in college and a blond wife. Your thoughts? Stacy McCarty GTAA Last edited by PONTIAC'S REVENGE; 10-09-2009 at 10:09 AM.