Dommination of FI cars.

[Rich Biebel]

Todd, it was meant as joke reply to a joke post. I know very little about the Ford combinations that appear to be a good bit faster than just about any other car at that weight break. Since I raced Stock in the era when those cars were new I can tell you I never saw one racing back then that I can recall.

[LNorton]

Originally Posted by Speedracer

I'm not going to get into ANY kind of arguments with anybody,but telling a Stock racer (that reads the rulebook) that he needs to use the correct venturi size on his carburetor is not really fair when the car in the other lane has fuel injection.Thats all I'm going to say.

Well, if you can have a different venturi size then I want a bigger throttle body.

What a lot of people dont understand is that EFI is basically a carb that you tune with a laptop. If you tune without an air/fuel ratio meter(as i have for the past two years) then you are in the same ballpark as most carb guys. If you use an air/fuel ratio meter then you can tune it in very nicely. But this meter also works all the same with a carb.

If you arent using one, you are just tuning by the seat of your pants.

Also, I would never set the tune up in the computer to pick up ET at a race. Most racers are doing this with shift points, and timing. I can easily drop a few degrees of timing in the laptop, and you carb guys just have to take a few min to turn the distributor.

Give EFI a try once... it is a pain in the *** most of the time. Only 10% of the time do I really have a clue what I am doing.

[LouisJeffery]

The Advantage of the FI cars is not limited to the fuel system. The bigger deal is all the modern efficent parts in the engine. The parts in a LT1 and LS1 are so much better than the agricultural old junk in most ( not all) carb. vehicles. No matter how much you work on it you still have antique cast iron stuff.

[Bushwacker]

I have bitched about fast cars having advantage over slower cars because of redlight advantage.
All I ever heard was build a fast car if you dont like it.
Ok if you think FI has advantage build one you complaining bastards or even up the playing field for slower cars.

[John Kelley]

Originally Posted by Bushwacker

I have bitched about fast cars having advantage over slower cars because of redlight advantage.
All I ever heard was build a fast car if you dont like it.
Ok if you think FI has advantage build one you complaining bastards or even up the playing field for slower cars.

FIRST OR WORST is only right on a redlight,the slower car shouldn't automatically be the loser !!!

[Evan Smith]

Last time I checked the class is called Stock Eliminator, not Nostaliga Stock. The factories haven't made a car or truck with a carb since the '80s.

This is a stupid debate. Based on the comments made by those who are bitching, it has become clear that they do not understand the basics of internal combuation and/or electronic fuel injection. Furthermore, they are terrified of technology, some of which they probably use every day.

The friggin injectors simply flow fuel and are no different than a jet in a carb. It is but one way the EFI system meters fuel. You can over fuel or under fuel with either EFI or carburetion. An injector is simply a solenoid controlled by the computer, which is tuned by an individual. The idea, just like with a carb, is to find the optimal air/fuel ratio for the engine under WOT. How does one know what the proper a/f ratio is? Easy, you use current technology with an O2 sensor and either track or dyno testing to tune your engine. You can do this with a carbureted setup or with EFI. Once you've achieved max power using this tuning method, there is not much more anyone can do to make more power by simply stroking keys or by other measures. If you do not know how somthing works I recommend you educate yourself before making silly comments in an open forum.

The intake and throttle body is what controls (and limits) airflow, the injectors have nothing to do with airflow. Injectors are flow rated at a given psi and raising or lowering the pressure can increase or decrease fuel flow. One can also alter the "pulse width," which is the amount of time the injector stays open once it is commandeed to do so. In most cases, the TB and intake is sized much smaller than a comparable carb/intake setup for any given displacement engine.

Evan

[Evan Smith]

Ed,

There is no questioning that the GM LS engine is superior to other small-blocks. But this doesn't speak for all EFI cars. The LS1 started around 325 HP and is now over 370 in some cases. Over time I'm sure it will continute to get factored, so what's the big deal.

It is most certainly is possible to control cylinder-to-cylinder fueling with some EFI systems, but not with others. Getting this right would take eight wide-band a/f sensors in each header pipe, the data-logging to receive the data and quite a bit of time and money spent on testing. This is more than most Stock racers will go through to find what would likely be only a 5-10 hp at most. You could do similar tuning with MSD's adjustable ignition box (on virtually any engine) using adjustable timing to alter the a/f mix.

While I am not a carb expert (or an expert on anything for that matter), I would imagine you could stagger jetting (on some cabs) to affect the a/f ratio using same a/f sensor technique as noted above with simlar expense. Technology will always move forward, that is a fact in any part of life. There are plenty of racers going 1.20, 1.30 or even 1.40-or-further under with carburetors. If EFI is that much better then racers wishing to use such technology can go get at car or truck with EFI. NHRA doesn't require that you or anyone run any particular combination. This is competitive racing with thousands of combinations that NHRA has to try and keep on a level playing field. This, as anyone knows, is virtually impossible. Someone will always be fast, others will be slow.

I think guys with carbs have an advantage because the cars are easier to work on and simpler to operate. Plus, carb racers have had the advantage of far more R&D time since many have been running these cars since the '60s. So maybe we should ban carburetors and only allow 1988 or newer cars in Stock. Of course I'm kidding, but you see my point. Why sit here and complain about everything? I guarantee that over the broad spectrum of classes the majority of cars will be rather equal in performance. There will always be on fast EFI car or combo that eveyone points out, there will be many more with carburetors that fly.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that carbs are not as efficient as EFI. But the real issue that everyone is crying about is weak factors on EFI cars. Namely the LS engines. Many of the fast cars have been hit hard. There have been 9.80 passes in my division by two or three cars. All big-blocks, which is what the LS cars run against. Now that the classes are combined, there will be more heads-up runs and more action from the AHFS. If a racer's goal is to go far under the index, well find a combination that is soft.

Evan

[Evan Smith]

Ed,

Another note: From the testing I've done, I can tell you there is very little difference in hp once the a/f ratio is in the "zone." Say your target is 13.0:1, well, running at 12.8-13.2 will give you virtually the same HP. As long as most engines stay in this window, power will vary very little. The trick is knowing cylinder-to-cylinder a/f during the run, which, while some may have, is not someting I've not seen on any Stocker.

Evan

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Ed OBrien

Evan
With EFI and 8 injectors is it not possible to adjust each cly. to the proper A/F mix ? With a stock intake and a carb how close can you get ? How many small blocks with a carb run in the 9 second range ? I'm not saying
the FI cars are bad but they have not been factored as they should and think of all the combos in FI cars that Bob Shaw has not got to get LOL sorry Bob I just had to toss that one in . Have a nice day

Ed, there is more than adjusting each injector for each cylinder, and no, it is not an advantage since the mixture is affected by a lot of other variables such as airflow and reversion during the RPM transition. The A/F does not stay the same throughout the RPM band. There is more than F.I. that is helping the new cars go fast. Let's take a look at the following:

1. Better optimized cylinder heads and intakes.
2. Changed firing orders.
3. Lighter crankshafts, rods and pistons.
4. Thinner ring packages.
5. Hydraulic roller lifters.
6. Better oiling systems.
7. Better ignition systems.

I have seen articles in which they have removed the F.I. on LS1 engines, intall an Edelbrock intake and carb with the engine still making lots of power and torque. Many of the crate GM engines are just an LT1 engine with a carb.

[Tim Lisson]

Since I purchased a work in progress FI car last year, I hope the thread starter is correct and maybe I can win a race.......but I'll have to say playing with it last year I was really considering a carb.

tim