2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock - Page 6

Dick Kirkpatrick · 02-10-2009, 08:42 PM

It is like 1964 all over again, only in 2009 there is only ford playing the game.
In 64 ford had the dual quad high riser Tbolt, chevy had their lightweigt impalas and biscaynes with either the Z-11 or "mystery motor" and chrysler had their acid dipped 330's complete with hemi 426's
Add in the 421 super duty light weight pontiac catalinas and the game was on.
Everyone had a lot of fun until they started building funny cars.

Just let it happen, it is good for the sport and the manufacturers. Even the ones that aren't playing the game right now.

Bruce Noland · 02-10-2009, 08:53 PM

Guys,
I think the CJs are really neat race cars. I look forward to watching them run, but it would be very helpful for those of us who have something at stake in this issue to know that nhra is at least attempting to do it's job. So far the guys who have been hammering away at my posts on this subject don't have a car in these classes and in some cases they don't race at nhra events. Nothing is foolproof but searching for a reasonable solution makes sense.

Jeff Lee · 02-10-2009, 08:57 PM

Items like missing safety bumpers, lite-weight windows, those are items that make a car built by the OEM not DOT legal. Am I wrong? And in Stock Eliminator, it is not legal to ad or remove such items. Right?
I know the Challenger has such items and I believe the CJ500 has the same items. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
And the Challenger has non-EPA approved engine(s). I'm all for these cars being built by the factory and raced in Superstock were traditionally that is were factory "experimentals" were placed.
I even think some cars like the GT500 Shelby should be placed in Stock as they do in fact offer such a car and it is street legal. It would be great if ther was a weight-break for all the new hot rods, even the 638 HP 'Vette. I think it's great for the sport. But if it's an "experimental" nothing has changed since 1968. It's a Superstocker.

goinbroke2 · 02-10-2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

Does that mean a '68 HEMI 'Cuda or Hemi Dart can run C/S if 5 lbs is A and 5.5 lbs is B and 6 lbs is C since they made about 100 copies. Maybe a 7 lb class '64 Ford T-Bolt (100 copies again) or '69 AMX?????

ABSOLUTELY!!!

THAT is my point exactly! Yes the hemi's will get their ego's bruised, but if a new car (600+hp corvette or mustang or camaro, challenger whatever) comes out it should have a place to race. When an AWD minivan comes out with 355hp from the factory (eco boost flex) and runs in the 10's with tweeking, what are you going to do? A four door twin turbo fusion sport tweeked for class runs in the 10's? You have to realize that technology is making new cars faster/quicker/more efficient/etc.

Do you want nascar? Pushrods and carb's only? Forever? Yeah we can dumb down classracing so the hemi can always be the pinnacle and get all the limelight, but don't you think it will be a little silly when a factory muscle car eventually outruns it?

1963 racers are running all out flathead racecars and a factory 427/421/426/whatever pulls up and outruns them, what did they do, outlaw the factory cars? Think that NO CAR WILL RUN THE 12'S FROM THE FACTORY! No they moved on and embraced technology.

The hey days of class racing just might be back, yeah there is a perceived advantage for ford this year. Next year it could be mopar with the challenger underrated. Maybe 2011 will be chevies response to ford and mopar!
GUYS it's like 1960 all over. And from '60-'70 each took their turn at the top of the heap only to be replaced by the next ringer from the next manufacturer.

Tim Kish · 02-10-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

Guys,
I think the CJs are really neat race cars. I look forward to watching them run, but it would be very helpful for those of us who have something at stake in this issue to know that nhra is at least attempting to do it's job. So far the guys who have been hammering away at my posts on this subject don't have a car in these classes and in some cases they don't race at nhra events. Nothing is foolproof but searching for a reasonable solution makes sense.

Nope I don't have a AA or A stocker myself. But as Lead Product Engineer at Eaton Supercharger and technical advisor to Ford Racing on the supercharger I'd say I've got a dog in this one and I'm up for as much constructive discussion as the umpteen thousand viewers of the multiple posts on this subject are hoping to see. And while I want to see my product successful it needs to as evenly matched as possible to the more established combinations. Since there is no way to know the absolute performance potential of any factory produced engine prior to someone spending the time and money to build it and put it through its paces. So the options are to either change the name of the current category to Nostalgia Super Stock and do not allow any new combinations or try to constructively support NHRA in keeping the playing field as level as possible.

Jeff Lee · 02-10-2009, 09:40 PM

I just read up on the CJ500 to verify. It does not appear to have lite-weight parts in the package like the Challenger. The CJ500 is however a package NOT offered by Ford for public use on public roads. If you want a Mustang with a supercharged 5.4l, you need to buy a Shelby.

Tim Kish · 02-10-2009, 09:59 PM

Jeff - 5pt harnesses, open header exhaust and slicks are not DOT legal and every stocker has them. Again the body and the major powertrain components (the parts you can't change) are all parts that are OEM available., only exception could be the hood but the cars are not setup to utilize the cold air functionality.

Arnold Greene · 02-10-2009, 10:16 PM

Some seem to think placing these cars into stock eliminator is the same as the muscle cars invading stock in the 60's. This is far from what took place.
In the 60's everyone was trying to go as fast as possible. The factories were trying to out run each other and that sold cars...cars that anyone could buy off the showroom floor. There wasn't an index that was being protected because you ran off of national records. The new cars didn't fit into existing classes so NHRA created new classes. The new cars were NOT placed in classes where older cars had previously raced. It seems that some common sense was used in creating those classes, as it has lasted until today.
NHRA has done many things, under the pretense of leveling the playing field. I guess they forgot about a level playing field when they received their stimulus package from Ford. These cars should be in super stock or in a class for S/C vehicles. Talk about bringing a knife to a gunfight........and the engines haven't been treated to the 'stock rules' yet.

Bruce Noland · 02-10-2009, 11:37 PM

Tim,
I'm convinced you know about these things. Please ask nhra to put one of your race ready machines to work on a chassis dyno. There is no point in beating this thing to death when the dyno numbers will tell everyone what we need to know. Isn't that the best way to resolve this issue?

junior barns · 02-11-2009, 12:04 AM

Tim you said

Why can they not produce 600+ HP in race trim - the older combinations in A & AA do and most are factored at equal or less HP than the Cobra Jet (A couple of the Hemis are factored higher but not by much you said

Are you saying this is what they are producing? Most people seem to think these cars will produce 700+HP or more. This is the problem.

Hey Arnold I see you chimed in here. I think you are as fast as any in these catagories wih the 427,s and 396,s. Do you think you can run with these new players??

02-10-2009, 08:42 PM	#51
Dick Kirkpatrick Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Carlise, Ontario, Canada Posts: 73 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock It is like 1964 all over again, only in 2009 there is only ford playing the game. In 64 ford had the dual quad high riser Tbolt, chevy had their lightweigt impalas and biscaynes with either the Z-11 or "mystery motor" and chrysler had their acid dipped 330's complete with hemi 426's Add in the 421 super duty light weight pontiac catalinas and the game was on. Everyone had a lot of fun until they started building funny cars. Just let it happen, it is good for the sport and the manufacturers. Even the ones that aren't playing the game right now. __________________ Dick Kirkpatrick 3033 SS

02-10-2009, 08:53 PM	#52
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock Guys, I think the CJs are really neat race cars. I look forward to watching them run, but it would be very helpful for those of us who have something at stake in this issue to know that nhra is at least attempting to do it's job. So far the guys who have been hammering away at my posts on this subject don't have a car in these classes and in some cases they don't race at nhra events. Nothing is foolproof but searching for a reasonable solution makes sense. __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK

02-10-2009, 08:57 PM	#53
Jeff Lee VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Anthem, Arizona Posts: 2,766 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock Items like missing safety bumpers, lite-weight windows, those are items that make a car built by the OEM not DOT legal. Am I wrong? And in Stock Eliminator, it is not legal to ad or remove such items. Right? I know the Challenger has such items and I believe the CJ500 has the same items. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And the Challenger has non-EPA approved engine(s). I'm all for these cars being built by the factory and raced in Superstock were traditionally that is were factory "experimentals" were placed. I even think some cars like the GT500 Shelby should be placed in Stock as they do in fact offer such a car and it is street legal. It would be great if ther was a weight-break for all the new hot rods, even the 638 HP 'Vette. I think it's great for the sport. But if it's an "experimental" nothing has changed since 1968. It's a Superstocker. __________________ Jeff Lee 7494 D/S '70 AMX

02-10-2009, 09:40 PM	#56
Jeff Lee VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Anthem, Arizona Posts: 2,766 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock I just read up on the CJ500 to verify. It does not appear to have lite-weight parts in the package like the Challenger. The CJ500 is however a package NOT offered by Ford for public use on public roads. If you want a Mustang with a supercharged 5.4l, you need to buy a Shelby. __________________ Jeff Lee 7494 D/S '70 AMX

02-10-2009, 09:59 PM	#57
Tim Kish Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 281 Likes: 2 Liked 11 Times in 4 Posts	Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock Jeff - 5pt harnesses, open header exhaust and slicks are not DOT legal and every stocker has them. Again the body and the major powertrain components (the parts you can't change) are all parts that are OEM available., only exception could be the hood but the cars are not setup to utilize the cold air functionality. __________________ Tim Kish 3032 SS/GS

02-10-2009, 10:16 PM	#58
Arnold Greene Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 136 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock Some seem to think placing these cars into stock eliminator is the same as the muscle cars invading stock in the 60's. This is far from what took place. In the 60's everyone was trying to go as fast as possible. The factories were trying to out run each other and that sold cars...cars that anyone could buy off the showroom floor. There wasn't an index that was being protected because you ran off of national records. The new cars didn't fit into existing classes so NHRA created new classes. The new cars were NOT placed in classes where older cars had previously raced. It seems that some common sense was used in creating those classes, as it has lasted until today. NHRA has done many things, under the pretense of leveling the playing field. I guess they forgot about a level playing field when they received their stimulus package from Ford. These cars should be in super stock or in a class for S/C vehicles. Talk about bringing a knife to a gunfight........and the engines haven't been treated to the 'stock rules' yet. __________________ Arnold Greene IHRA/NHRA 2420 A/S, B/S

02-10-2009, 11:37 PM	#59
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock Tim, I'm convinced you know about these things. Please ask nhra to put one of your race ready machines to work on a chassis dyno. There is no point in beating this thing to death when the dyno numbers will tell everyone what we need to know. Isn't that the best way to resolve this issue? __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK Last edited by Bruce Noland; 02-10-2009 at 11:42 PM.

02-11-2009, 12:04 AM	#60
junior barns Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 541 Likes: 11 Liked 20 Times in 14 Posts	Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock Tim you said Why can they not produce 600+ HP in race trim - the older combinations in A & AA do and most are factored at equal or less HP than the Cobra Jet (A couple of the Hemis are factored higher but not by much you said Are you saying this is what they are producing? Most people seem to think these cars will produce 700+HP or more. This is the problem. Hey Arnold I see you chimed in here. I think you are as fast as any in these catagories wih the 427,s and 396,s. Do you think you can run with these new players??