M.g.

[Harry 6674]

I think a rule change is in order, shouldn't be tough for NHRA@IHRA to implement it. How ever at bracket races I,ve had to give cars up to a 10 second spot. I'll bet alot of you have given more than that and when he leaves and you don't see your win light come on and you sit and wait it always screws with my rt. Usually red. I think my attention span is a little short.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Jack McCarthy

here's my .02 cents worth (and i should know)

i knew the rule when i chose my class / car (28 years ago)
i know i have a disadvantage on the redlight rule

i used to have advantage on class winner money ( until i was enhanced)
i now have another disadvantage on the line - two steps (some enhancement relief last year)

however... i still have advantages

i enjoy a good slick track, especially when paired with a-b-c radial car
i still spend less than an a--b-c car (but still way too much... enhance enhance enhance)
i never hit the wheelie bars and spin
i put up wiuth less assholes...the guys who race in o- w are a much nicer breed

captain
i agree with billy... lose the reaction times & incrementals

You're 101% correct Jack,as usual.And congratulations on the record with the batcar.

Ed
Slug Racer

[bill dedman]

Ed,

I asked you to explain your comment, " Bill,maybe I'm crazy but I see no reason to make things anymore complicated than they already are." but, I didn't see an explanation as to how this new system of operation would "complicate" anything.

What am I missing here? Nobody's even going to know it's in place unless somebody red lights, and then it's no more complicated than it's EVER been... somebody goes home.

Did I overlook something?

Bill

[Mark Yacavone]

Bill, This reminds me of the deep stage issue. People were dead set against it, when they didn't even fully understand the concept.
As I said, I can live without the change, but I don't understand why anybody would be against it.
That is of course , unless they had a self -centered reason, like owning a fast AA car.

Haven't heard from any of them. I think we lost them several pages back,with all this slow car talk.

[bill dedman]

Thanks for your opinion, Mark.

What I can't understand is the reluctance of the very people who are currently victimized nearly every time they come to the line (first car to leave) to embrace a system that would give them a fair shake for the first time in their lives.

Go figure....

[Dennis P Chapman]

Bill
I like your idea I have lost on a double red light. Two or three times I had the better
light two of the three times. I do driver a slower car.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Thanks for your opinion, Mark.

What I can't understand is the reluctance of the very people who are currently victimized nearly every time they come to the line (first car to leave) to embrace a system that would give them a fair shake for the first time in their lives.

Go figure....

Bill,nobody's being "vicimmized",just losing a round of racing.You make it sound like a life threatening condition.Jeez.

[Bob Don]

Bill - This is an interesting idea. Having run a U and V car for a number of years, I would have to concur that your idea has merit. It would definitely be a pretty simple programming change to make it work. This would make both cars work the tree rather than giving the fast one a free pass if the slower one were to redlight. I will say, however, that when you are in a slow car and you cut a good light and you're dissappearing down the track before the fast guy's tree comes down, it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the fast guy to cut a good light. Sometimes it's enough pressure for them to make a mistake. When I raced, I knew it was always first or worse and I accepted that. In the Summernationals one year, I was paired with Geroge Williams' Vega wagon. I was driving in U/SA and I was not used to giving anyone a head start. When I saw George about 50 yds out before my tree fell, I panicked and red lit big time!

[bill dedman]

Ed,

I'm sorry if I have overblown the importance of this situation up to beyond what it logically should be.

Like I said, the probability is, that nothing's going to happen anyway, so it's just a tempest in a teapot, most likely.

If NHRA actually effected this change, I'd probably just keel over..... LOL!

I was 25 when this present (First Red Light) system was enacted (1963.) Many years later, I was made aware of the lopsided way this system treats the racers by a friend who is obviously a LOT smarter than I am, because I'd been watching it for probably at least 30 years and had never seen anything wrong with it; it was what it was. Nobody complained.... so, I thought it was fine.... I raced my sedan delivery Stocker under it and it never occcurred to me that every time I ran a quicker car, I was being deprived of my right to pressure HIM into a red light, if I'd already red lighted... I GAVE him the round.... and was never the wiser. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, obviously!

But, the more I thought about it over the years, the more it seemed to need to change to give equal treatment to both cars... since they weren't GETTING equal treatment.

But, the amount of inertia that exists in the scheme of things where NHRA is concerned makes Mt. Everest look like a molehill, so it just kind of struggled along for years, with no one doing anything about it.

That's where we are, now.

Be that as it may, I'll never get over feeling that any car that leaves first on a handicap start, whether it's a W/SA car or an A/SA car, is not getting a fair shake on the tree with the current system. Both cars need to have the SAME CHANCE to red light, regardless of what the first car does. As it stands, they don't, if the first car leaves too soon.

If that isn't making the first car to leave a victim of the system, then I don't know of a better way to express it.


Thanks to everyone for your comments; this is a good example of what this board is for, I think... to give EVERYONE a chance to voice his/her opinion on issues like this.

You don't need to be a woman to be a good gynecologist, and you don't need to be racing to have a valid opinion about issues like this.... The racers have another board for discussing "racer-only" issues. I think ANYONE with an opinion should be welcome to discuss it here; otherwise, what's the other board for???

So, thanks for listening; I don't think I have any other information or personal opinions relative to this situation.

Bill

[GarysZ24]

No Bill,

I can't let this dog lay down without adding my extra .02. You and Casey, plus Mark get it, but I'll offer another take on it...right now, the first car to cross the finish line on a break out run doesn't automatically lose the race (and no lights are displayed), until the second car crosses the line...thus allowing the least breakout to produce the round winner, right??? So why not do for the starting line the same thing with regards to the possibility of a redlight...as you said the second car should have the same pressure applied to him/her as the first leaver does (thus to level out the playing field)...i.e. as Casey suggested, a "No Red" adjustment to the Christmas Tree, that would delay the display of the redeye until after the second car launched from the line, and the timers would then give the redlight to the worse of the two...I don't understand the difficulty in comprehending that ideal either, but I tell you what I sure can think of two recent year races that I could've possibly benefitted from a No Red First Leave display:

1. Quarterfinals at the LODRS DIV. VII #2 race at Tucson, Az. I wasted a right on the Dial in run on a redeye that was only -.013. Wes McGann would've had a chance to redlight too if he wouldn't have seen my redeye displayed while he waited just over 4.0sec's for his lights to come down after mine started to. I ran right on my dial-in too (15.940 on a 15.94 dial-in), which added more salt to the wound. If my red light wouldn't have been shown, then he would've had the same pressure I had to make his light good but quicker than the .092 that he carded in that run, and even though he broke out(11.555 on a 11.59 dial), it didn't matter, because the 46yr old first or worse rule applied. Some might say that my redlight was worse than his breakout, however if he had a chance to redlight because of the "NO RED FIRST LEAVE" display, then he could've redlighted too, and his could've been a -0.14 (or more)??? Even the "Drag Race Central" commentator said it proper by adding the caption "McGann gets an easy win as Hampton red lights"! Why should he and other faster cars get easy wins at our slower car expenses?

Why do you think guys such as Peter Biondo enjoy the perks of having one of the fastest cars wherever he goes now? Because under the current format (and in most of his races), he's going to be the second person to leave the line. He didn't need it before, but he sure is enjoying the perks of it now huh...Ohh and lest I forget other racers such as Dan Fletcher who made his Camaro faster so that he now gets to be a chaser more often than a chasee, and even Lee Zane has a faster car now than the one that gave him his claim to fame!

2. I had a similar race against Brad Burton last year in the LODRS DIV. VII RACE #1, where I redbulbed by -.022. Brads light was a .023, so if your ideal Bill would've applied here, then Brad would've had a chance to redlight as well since he was only safe from doing so by .024 (and he also gave up an over 4sec head start to me), but if he'd have done so his could've been worse than mine!? I just wish my light would've been green since we don't have that rule, because my breakout was just -.025, as opposed to his -.039.

Heck, the (now SS/AH) cars who used to rule Super Stock are getting a dose of their own medicine with the expansion of Super Stock to include Modified Production & Modified Stock cars (plus some of the GT classes), which are now faster than the DREADED HEMI used to be in both the SS/AA & SS/BA (plus SS/A & SS/B) classes...you sure don't see them as dominating as they used to be back in the 70's to late 80's huh???

Thanks to Drag Race Central for the stats on both races! Bill, I know I would benefit from your ideal, and I also know not to hold my breath, but isn't rather interesting how quickly numerous A/SA & A/S cars made the upgrades to AA/SA & AA/S...I wonder if this thread didn't touch on the primary reason why??? Heck, it almost reminds me of the pro classes, the people with the most money generally do most of the winning, because the rules seem to favor the have's over the have not's...the faster over the slower!!! Oh, and one more thing, Casey you hit another nail on the head by noting that the faster car has an easier judgement of the finish line over the slower car racer, because everything is in front of him/her (opponent/finish line), thus benefit number two of upgrading to AA/SA & AA/S...just my extra .02