A/SA First in the 9.80's

[Dave Ficacci]

Originally Posted by Mike Mans

I understand people's frustration with fast combinations, but why does everyone complain instead of go work on their own stuff?

Yeah, that's the answer... I need to work on my stuff more to run with the DPs and CJs... wtf?

It is absolutely ludicrous that everyone has been raising hell over the fact that Ford and Chrysler have played by the rules set forth in the NHRA rulebook and have purpose built cars within the guidelines to be competitive.

People aren't raising hell with Ford or Chrysler, its with NHRA who factors these cars. The fact that the 2010 CJ is 425 and the 08 is 439 is another F U from NHRA to everyone that runs in A or AA. 68-69 Camaros, Nova and Chevelles carry the same rating, so do 93-97 Camaros/Firebirds, 98-02 Camaros/Firebirds...Why are these cars rated differently?

Everyone in any class can be capable of winning, no matter how fast you are (as long as you can run the index obviously).

Until you run one heads up.

It's not like the guys with the new cars are out here winning every event, so who cares how fast they go?

People who run AA and A do.

Mike Mans

Mike,

I agree with everything you have said, except for what I have quoted above. The new cars are great for the sport, but not for those directly affected by their existence within their class.

For someone who has maybe 1 or 2 other SS/CS car at an event you enter other than Indy, your comments hold no substance with me . Until you run one 4th round heads up at a National event, you wont understand. You can probably count the total amount of heads up races you've had in CS over your career on 1 hand. While most anyone who runs in the same classes as these new cars have 5 heads up or so by mid season. This number will continue to go way up, and your winning percentage will go way down when you line up to one of these grossly under factored cars.

The problem right now might be small because there aren't that many out there.... but by the end of the year there will be around 10 of these at every race here in D1. The chances of running into one of these cars become much more of a possibility. Bringing a knife to a gun fight is not my idea of fun.

I guess I should go work on my stuff now...I know i have 3 tenths somewhere to catch these guys.

[Larry Hill]

Mike Mans,

I worked most of yesterday on the flow bench and lathe (making test valves, you know changing back angle, stem radius, surface finish, and waist diameter) and picked maybe two to three HP. I do need help on finding the remaining 75 to 85 HP I need to make it a race in a heads up situation.

Breaks over back to work!

[Floyd Gomez]

Mr Larry check your PM's

[Jack Matyas]

[QUOTE=Dave Ficacci;180106

Until you run one 4th round heads up at a National event, you wont understand. ....... but by the end of the year there will be around 10 of these at every race here in D1. The chances of running into one of these cars become much more of a possibility.

Dave -- I feel your pain as I too lost earlier this year to a heads-up at a National event during the 4th round - but to an old car - so the roles were reversed . As for there being 10 of these at every event -- that may be a premature thought ..............and they won't all be in the same class if they did show up .

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by Dave Ficacci

Mike,

I agree with everything you have said, except for what I have quoted above. The new cars are great for the sport, but not for those directly affected by their existence within their class.


I guess I should go work on my stuff now...I know i have 3 tenths somewhere to catch these guys.

Well Dave, to point 1....I would love to know (being the nosy DP guy I am what 10 cars will be on the track ?) Im serious....

To point two I was recently notified today of the cause for our failures the secret squirrels we ordered were trained in china and had counterfit SSQ tags affixed at the distributor. They have promised us a new batch of Secret Squirrels guarenteed to work, although not trained yet to correct my spelling. Let me know if you need any

[Mike Mans]

I totally understand what you're point is by getting beat by them - but look at how you got to this point. You are racing a 1969 Camaro. A 41 year old car that has had 41 years of horsepower added to it. It's been beaten up. I didn't do it, you probably didn't even do it - but your cars have taken a significant beating with time. Unfortunately the odds of power being taken off are slim to none. The factory race cars are brand new with factory support. They are trying to encourage people to build new race cars and have gotten horsepower factors approved at a certain number (you would know better than I) that may be lower than actually produced. But I guarantee you that in 1969 a 427 properly built in stock was "underrated." If Ford and Chrysler came out with a new Drag Pak and Cobra Jet cars with 500hp factors, nobody in their right mind would build one!

If you remember back to when the 93+Firebirds/Camaros came out, this was the exact same problem. But now, they are on a pretty even plane with the rest of you guys - the system is slow I will give you that. But it does eventually work itself out. I know that everyone on here will claim that they couldn't afford to build one of these new cars - or just may not want to for personal reasons. But if someone is going to build a new Stock DP/CJ it would cost them about the same as building one of the prestine and competitive muscle cars like yours or McClanahan's new ride. I guarantee the price tag differences aren't very far apart.

I hate losing in heads up races, and fortunately we were able to get into a class where as you've said - I don't run into heads up situations very often. But I assure you, we spend hundreds of hours a year making our car faster and building horsepower just in case we do find ourselves in that position. I know firsthand how much this stuff costs, we build all of our own motors and never stop trying new things. It's not easy.

I know it's a slightly different case, but a prime example is Jim Daniels. Ray Barton and those guys have breathed Hemi engines since their inception, but in the last year or two they've SIGNIFICANTLY picked up their program and are running TENTHS faster than they ever have. It can be done. I know it's time and money which we are all struggling to keep up with, but if you are set to run your 60's/70's muscle car - you're pockets have to get deeper. You are competing with teams of engineers at Ford and Mopar whose sole purpose is building efficient engines that crank out huge horsepower.

At the end of the day, there is always going to be a "better combination" and a guy with more money or time to put into it than what most have got. It sucks, but it's all part of the Stock / Super Stock classes and it hasn't changed.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Larry Hill

Mike Mans,

I worked most of yesterday on the flow bench and lathe (making test valves, you know changing back angle, stem radius, surface finish, and waist diameter) and picked maybe two to three HP. I do need help on finding the remaining 75 to 85 HP I need to make it a race in a heads up situation.

Breaks over back to work!

Larry.....Just port the heads like your competition and blast them with "Black Beauty" (acid isnt as good) to hide what you did. Use the rough grit. $35 worth of Black Beauty and 10-15 min. per head is all it takes. It works great on both alum. and cast iron heads and intake manfolds. Thats at least 1/2 of the HP min. your looking for on a 440/383 head. Dont forget to fill the heat riser with an old broken racing piston (Im sure you have a couple of those after the demise of your engine) to as close to the bowel area as you think you dare so the tech inspectors wont get upset. That alone picks up that one port close to 5%. If you dont believe its being done then Ive got a nice bridge I can sell you ! LOL

[Andrew Hill]

Originally Posted by Mike Mans

If you remember back to when the 93+Firebirds/Camaros came out, this was the exact same problem. But now, they are on a pretty even plane with the rest of you guys - the system is slow I will give you that. But it does eventually work itself out.

Remember that now it is more difficult to get horsepower. 15 hundredths harder to get looked at, and 15 hundredths harder to get automatic. I wonder what the LS1 and LT1s would be now if the indexes and horsepower triggers were changed when they came out.

[Dave Ficacci]

Originally Posted by Mike Mans

I totally understand what you're point is by getting beat by them - but look at how you got to this point. You are racing a 1969 Camaro. A 41 year old car that has had 41 years of horsepower added to it. It's been beaten up. I didn't do it, you probably didn't even do it - but your cars have taken a significant beating with time.

Beaten up or not, it's still a good combination. The combination was capable of running with any other AA A or B car in the country. That was taken away when these new cars arrived. It didnt take 41 years to get here, it took one piece of paper when someone wrote down 425 for the CJ and 390 for the DP.

Unfortunately the odds of power being taken off are slim to none. The factory race cars are brand new with factory support. They are trying to encourage people to build new race cars and have gotten horsepower factors approved at a certain number (you would know better than I) that may be lower than actually produced. But I guarantee you that in 1969 a 427 properly built in stock was "underrated." If Ford and Chrysler came out with a new Drag Pak and Cobra Jet cars with 500hp factors, nobody in their right mind would build one!

You are correct, a 500hp rating would be too high and no one would build it, but 425 is a joke... Ok, I understand they had to start somewhere. They proved the 425 rating was ridiculous last year, and yet they rate the 2010 at 425 again!

If you remember back to when the 93+Firebirds/Camaros came out, this was the exact same problem. But now, they are on a pretty even plane with the rest of you guys - the system is slow I will give you that. But it does eventually work itself out.

It took 15 years for it to work out. You would think they would have learned from their mistakes. Maybe they will add HP to these cars more aggressively. Only time will tell..but for now, this blows.

I hate losing in heads up races, and fortunately we were able to get into a class where as you've said - I don't run into heads up situations very often. But I assure you, we spend hundreds of hours a year making our car faster and building horsepower just in case we do find ourselves in that position. I know firsthand how much this stuff costs, we build all of our own motors and never stop trying new things. It's not easy.

No one said it was easy, nor did I say you didn't work hard. This is probably a lame comparison, but imagine NHRA came out and said, SS/BS cars and CS cars are now combined, but the BS cars only have to add 100 lbs to fit the new class. With the swipe of the pen your "fast" car is now mid pack. How would you like to hear from someone not in your class to tell you to "work on your stuff."

I know it's a slightly different case, but a prime example is Jim Daniels. Ray Barton and those guys have breathed Hemi engines since their inception, but in the last year or two they've SIGNIFICANTLY picked up their program and are running TENTHS faster than they ever have. It can be done. I know it's time and money which we are all struggling to keep up with, but if you are set to run your 60's/70's muscle car - you're pockets have to get deeper. You are competing with teams of engineers at Ford and Mopar whose sole purpose is building efficient engines that crank out huge horsepower.

Comparing SS/AH to stock is apples and oranges. Without custom heads and manifolds, picking up tenths (legally) in stock, doesn't happen.

At the end of the day, there is always going to be a "better combination" and a guy with more money or time to put into it than what most have got. It sucks, but it's all part of the Stock / Super Stock classes and it hasn't changed.

Absolutely true, but a "better combination" shouldn't be 3 tenths in front of everyone else out of the box. That's a "soft combination" that will only get faster once these guys start sorting them out.

---

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Mike Mans

I know this has to be a generational thing, because I've heard the impressive story numerous times about how Ben Wenzel bought his 1967 Z-28 Camaro new, brought it to the racetrack and won the US Nationals with it in 1967.

So many of you want a new class for all of the new factory race cars, well - how about NHRA just creates a class for you instead. Nostalgia Stock. Otherwise, get back to work on your car not your keyboard.

Mike Mans

*** This post was not meant to insult or criticize anyone with older generation cars, I truly am a fan of them and appreciate old school muscle and performance.

Interesting parallel or comparison you attempt to draw there. But in 1967, you could go to the dealership and buy a new 1967 Z-28 Camaro and DRIVE it home. It had a VIN, emissions equipment, safety equipment, and there were 602 built. It was a regular production option, available to the general public, to drive on the street. The 302 was just a throw together piece Vince Piggins came up with to make the Camaro legal in SCCA Trans Am racing, it didn't even have a thing to do with drag racing. The car was not even a purpose built race car, drag race or not.

If we could get our car as fast as the fastest ones like it in the country, cars that have been thrashed for 30 years, it still wouldn't come close to the purpose built race cars. Care to tell us what we should do to it? We can't just go buy a different set of ported heads or a cam with more lift, or another intake, or the latest trick carburetor. So by all means tell us what we should do to our cars when we get back to the shop tomorrow.

For decades, the rules for Stock Eliminator were specifically written so that purpose built race cars were not legal. All sorts of cars were excluded, because they were not factory built production cars sold in quantity to the general public. For an easy and well known example, you can't race a 67 L-88 Corvette in Stock, because there were only 36 built and sold to the general public (word is there were others sold through back door channels to racers). But you can now race a car that was NEVER sold to the general public, never passed emissions, never had safety equipment, never had a VIN, and in fact couldn't even be driven away from the dealer.

The most basic rule for Stock Eliminator has completely changed. It changes the basic character of the class.

The thing is, this thing with the new cars isn't like anything in the past. People keep trying to act like it is, but it isn't. Because cars like this have never been legal for Stock. It doesn't matter how many times people try to say it is just like past history, it doesn't make it so.

And now, yet another person who never has to face one of these cars heads up feels compelled to come in and tell us all how we should all just smile and "take one for the team", and feel privileged to "do it for the good of the class".

And we keep hearing how good this is supposed to be for the sport. But I can't see how it's a good business model. I have yet to see a business just decide to mistreat its current customers in order to draw new customers, and be successful. It doesn't make sense. If you look at business, it generally costs about 2-3 times as much to gain a new customer as it does to keep an old customer. So I just can't see how telling a big percentage of long time customers to take a screwing and like it in order to draw a small number of new customers is a solid long term business model.

Another thing about those "new customers". If the only way to get those "new customers" is to give them some sort of ridiculous advantage over the current customers, how long will the "new customers" stay when someone else is given the same thing, and the "new customers" advantage is gone?

I don't have anything against the people who bought the new cars, it isn't their fault. NHRA opened up the rulebook and changed it, they didn't. They just took advantage of an opportunity they were given by NHRA.

NHRA has created a whole new precedent here. I wonder how happy people will be when NHRA decides to make another wholesale change that has a less than enjoyable effect on them. I wonder if it will still be so wonderful if a year or two from now NHRA decides to make these expensive new cars obsolete by letting in another ringer or two.