Beehive Valve Spring Retainer Heights

FSA1673 · 07-09-2013, 08:50 PM

My question is if you measured the installed height with a regular stock retainer with standard locks and then measured the installed height with a PAC beehive retainer with standard locks would they be different installed heights?

Ed Wright · 07-09-2013, 08:57 PM

Don't trust something like that.
Why can you not measure the beehive retainer?

FSA1673 · 07-10-2013, 07:47 AM

Ed,

I guess I should have rephrased my question. With my current dual valve springs and tool steel retainers with standard locks I have more height from the spring pad to the underside of the retainer then when I install the beehive retainer and standard locks.

I was just wondering if this is normal. There is rougly 0.120 in the difference.

Thanks, Scott

Ed Wright · 07-10-2013, 08:09 AM

They make different hight retainers, +.050" and + .050", I sure would not expect .120" difference. That might be hard to make up. Are the beehives supposed to set up that much shorter?

FSA1673 · 07-10-2013, 10:59 AM

Never knew they made different height retainers. I knew abut the locks for the retainers, being -0.050, 0.000, and +0.050.

Thanks, Scott

Darrin Christen · 07-10-2013, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FSA1673

Never knew they made different height retainers. I knew abut the locks for the retainers, being -0.050, 0.000, and +0.050.

Thanks, Scott

Yes they make different installed height retainers and locks. Also, just because one company says their locks are standard or + .050 or - .050 doesn't mean that they will be the same installed height of a different brand retainer or lock. I had two different brand locks that were supposed to be standard and they were .030 different. Don't take nothing for granted.

joelster · 07-10-2013, 09:38 PM

Is the beehive retainer using the same lock angle as your double spring retainer? I bet one is 10 and the other is 7 yet you are using the same locks. They won't fit right if you put a 10 degree lock into a 7 degree retainer.

james schaechter · 07-10-2013, 10:42 PM

I can't speak for what your old springs were, but I can tell you that the PAC retainers for 1409 beehives are thinner, lighter and stronger than most. Typically, they have a higher natural installed height because of this compared to the other brand beehive retainers out there.

E mail me with specifics and I can offer some suggestions on PAC part numbers for keepers depending upon the valves you use.

Jimschaechter@earthlink.net

FSA1673 · 07-11-2013, 10:11 AM

Old tool steel retainers are 10 degree standard locks. New beehive retainers are 7 degree standard locks. There is over 0.100 in the difference from the macined spring pad to the underside of the retainer. The beehive retainer is lower.

I talked to PAC yesterday an they said their lightweight tool steel retainer for the beehive installs approximately 0.100 higher than the standard chromoly retainer. He told me to use R643 for the retainer on the 1409 spring. PAC also told me I would need to buy mini 8 locks to go with the new retainer and that should give me enough room. The trouble is the innner diameter of the 1409 spring is 0.650 and the outer diameter of the inner ring for the retainer is 0.658 according to their catalog. Which should not work.

I will have to call them back to today and make sure it is not the R633 retainer I need.

Thanks for all the help.

BillK · 07-11-2013, 08:41 PM

FSA,
After doing this stuff for close to 30 years, I found out a long time ago that the ONLY way to know is to get the actual retainer and locks that you "think" you need and try them.

If they measure ok, then get the springs. Retainers and locks vary all over the place. Also, make sure that the locks you get are from the same manufacturer that the retainers are from. 10 degree locks from one manufacturer will not always fit 10 degree retainers from a different manufacturer. etc etc etc. I have gotten to where I HATE valve springs and retainers

Hardest thing is trying to charge the customer for the time you spend trying to find a combination that will work right with a particular set of heads

I have accumulated about 50 individual retainers of different sizes. That makes things a little easier, having one to try.

07-09-2013, 08:50 PM	#1
FSA1673 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 83 Likes: 0 Liked 12 Times in 6 Posts	Beehive Valve Spring Retainer Heights My question is if you measured the installed height with a regular stock retainer with standard locks and then measured the installed height with a PAC beehive retainer with standard locks would they be different installed heights?

07-09-2013, 08:57 PM	#2
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 390 Times in 170 Posts	Re: Beehive Valve Spring Retainer Heights Don't trust something like that. Why can you not measure the beehive retainer? __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA Last edited by Ed Wright; 07-09-2013 at 09:33 PM.

07-10-2013, 07:47 AM	#3
FSA1673 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 83 Likes: 0 Liked 12 Times in 6 Posts	Re: Beehive Valve Spring Retainer Heights Ed, I guess I should have rephrased my question. With my current dual valve springs and tool steel retainers with standard locks I have more height from the spring pad to the underside of the retainer then when I install the beehive retainer and standard locks. I was just wondering if this is normal. There is rougly 0.120 in the difference. Thanks, Scott

07-10-2013, 08:09 AM	#4
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 390 Times in 170 Posts	Re: Beehive Valve Spring Retainer Heights They make different hight retainers, +.050" and + .050", I sure would not expect .120" difference. That might be hard to make up. Are the beehives supposed to set up that much shorter? __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA

07-10-2013, 10:59 AM	#5
FSA1673 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 83 Likes: 0 Liked 12 Times in 6 Posts	Re: Beehive Valve Spring Retainer Heights Never knew they made different height retainers. I knew abut the locks for the retainers, being -0.050, 0.000, and +0.050. Thanks, Scott

07-10-2013, 09:38 PM	#7
joelster Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tonawanda, NY Posts: 106 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Beehive Valve Spring Retainer Heights Is the beehive retainer using the same lock angle as your double spring retainer? I bet one is 10 and the other is 7 yet you are using the same locks. They won't fit right if you put a 10 degree lock into a 7 degree retainer.

07-10-2013, 10:42 PM	#8
james schaechter VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cumming GA Posts: 1,988 Likes: 1,288 Liked 1,428 Times in 296 Posts	Re: Beehive Valve Spring Retainer Heights I can't speak for what your old springs were, but I can tell you that the PAC retainers for 1409 beehives are thinner, lighter and stronger than most. Typically, they have a higher natural installed height because of this compared to the other brand beehive retainers out there. E mail me with specifics and I can offer some suggestions on PAC part numbers for keepers depending upon the valves you use. Jimschaechter@earthlink.net __________________ James Schaechter 3163 STK

07-11-2013, 10:11 AM	#9
FSA1673 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 83 Likes: 0 Liked 12 Times in 6 Posts	Re: Beehive Valve Spring Retainer Heights Old tool steel retainers are 10 degree standard locks. New beehive retainers are 7 degree standard locks. There is over 0.100 in the difference from the macined spring pad to the underside of the retainer. The beehive retainer is lower. I talked to PAC yesterday an they said their lightweight tool steel retainer for the beehive installs approximately 0.100 higher than the standard chromoly retainer. He told me to use R643 for the retainer on the 1409 spring. PAC also told me I would need to buy mini 8 locks to go with the new retainer and that should give me enough room. The trouble is the innner diameter of the 1409 spring is 0.650 and the outer diameter of the inner ring for the retainer is 0.658 according to their catalog. Which should not work. I will have to call them back to today and make sure it is not the R633 retainer I need. Thanks for all the help.

07-11-2013, 08:41 PM	#10
BillK Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Waldorf Md Posts: 230 Likes: 12 Liked 30 Times in 17 Posts	Re: Beehive Valve Spring Retainer Heights FSA, After doing this stuff for close to 30 years, I found out a long time ago that the ONLY way to know is to get the actual retainer and locks that you "think" you need and try them. If they measure ok, then get the springs. Retainers and locks vary all over the place. Also, make sure that the locks you get are from the same manufacturer that the retainers are from. 10 degree locks from one manufacturer will not always fit 10 degree retainers from a different manufacturer. etc etc etc. I have gotten to where I HATE valve springs and retainers Hardest thing is trying to charge the customer for the time you spend trying to find a combination that will work right with a particular set of heads I have accumulated about 50 individual retainers of different sizes. That makes things a little easier, having one to try. __________________ Bill Koustenis