Mustang MPH?

GUMP · 02-26-2009, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsa633

Shouldn't you been able to go to Ford and be able to order one if that's the case?...this is just a kit-car.

You were able to order them. They were built ready to race. Those are facts that I thought everyone in the discussion understood. I think the debate is more about how they were built and what they mean to the class. I think that eventually AA should become a 7.00 class and all the existing classes should be moved back .50. That would of course mean that 40 year old cars will no longer be the top dogs.

Bruce Noland · 02-26-2009, 09:13 AM

The new CJ is a factory built race car. The kind of car that nhra routinely placed in Factory Experimental when the OEMs were playing before.

The 40 year old cars would no longer be the top dogs if nhra started a new factory Experimental class.

The CJ discussion centers around Horsepower and the abuse of the classification system by nhra. nhra knows what is going on here but they are too hard up to be an honest power broker in this deal. And the Ford engineers think they need to make twice the amount of rated horsepower to dominate. They told me that at SEMA.

A good multiplier for the 396 and 427 motors is 1.45 times the rated Horsepower, by comparison, the new CJ is making use of an 1.8 multiplier. Numbers do not lie. That's the good thing about drag racing, the numbers for this car, will continue to "amaze" the drag racing world and in turn it will prove our point about where it really belongs.

Tim Kish · 02-26-2009, 11:17 AM

Bruce since you are putting numbers to it let's think about those numbers:

396 (rated 400hp) at a 1.45 ratio would make 580Hp = no way that is all these are making to run 9.70's.

Now the CJ, at 331 inches is 83.5% the physical displacement of the 396.

Using the 1.45 divided by 0.835 equals 1.74. This is the equivalent performance ratio required based solely on the delta in engine displacement. Not too far off your guess of 1.8 which is what they would have to be at to be performing equivalent at the same HP rating (ie: race weight). Since the CJ is rated 425Hp to the 400Hp of the 396, that ratio is 1.0625, multiply that by our 1.74 and you get 1.845. According to those ratios the CJ is handicapped to the 396. but pretty close again considering your .45 was soft (I think you posted your motor makes more than 580Hp)

So does 1-2 mph 1/8th mile really support the thought that these cars are 100-150HP underrated - these means you feel that to perform equivalent to the 396/427 cars the CJ should be another 750-1000lbs heavier. Ignoring that at that HP they couldn't add enough weight to actually run AA, using the old rule that 100lbs is a tenth these cars would slow down 0.8 to 1.0 from where they are today. Now I'm sure there is still ET in these cars but a whole second - get real. At least try to be realistic with your arguments.

Let's play devils advocate for a minute - there is 40 years worth of data to show that the Hemi's are overfactored against the 396 and 427 combinations - how many Hemi cars can run with the Chevy's in Stock or Superstock where they are in the same class? It's not for lack of trying. Why aren't we addressing that too?

Bruce Noland · 02-26-2009, 11:58 AM

Tim,

A good 396 will make approximately 580 (1.45 to 1.5) on the Dyno. A good 427 will make between 600 to 615 (1.45) on the dyno. You can take several of these cars to mine shaft or factored tracks and put up 9.70 numbers. Racers have worked for 20 years to get these numbers on the track, however their baseline dyno power multipliers are still 1.45 to 1.5.

When it comes to power, I'll gladly swap a Cheverolet Big Block for your 331 cubic inch Supercharged motor.You aren't denying the power number of 1.8 for your motor! Are you?

How much power are you guys making with this CJ motor Tim? A CJ has already put down a 9.78 in only it's second time at a sanctioned event. How much are you guys still holding? At this point, time is on our side. You guys have barged into Stock classes and had your way. Now we'll sit back and watch the numbers.

How much power is that little 331 Supercharged motor making? You can do it.

Tim Kish · 02-26-2009, 12:58 PM

The factors I calculated are a HP/cu in basis. Re-reading your previous assumptions I think you are thinking in HP/rated HP. Relative to engine displacement the ratios are legit, relative to factored HP we're all guessing and I think anything over 700Hp (with the stock pulley) is going to be a stretch.

Second sanctioned event after a year of track testing/development. These cars were not slapped together overnight.

Now to expect that any new engine/car combination will evolve at the pace the combos like yours have is absurd. Anyone with the knowledge gathered over that 20 years of development that you mention can apply that to a new engine and within a few months be running at a near equivalent level of optimization. You see this demonstrated when guys like Bob Shaw find some obscure combo that no one cared about, build one and run circles around everyone in its class - first time at a sanctioned event.

I don't know first hand what the limit is for these cars, i can guess like you (actually my guess might be a littel less dramatic). Probably even agree that these cars will justify some HP and earn it in the near future. I was hoping to see some entered in Gainesville to run for class (haven't looked to see if there are any Chevy hitters entered for it to matter).

BTW - no response from you regarding the Hemi's? Don't wanna bring that up as it doesn't benefit your cause?

bsa633 · 02-26-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP

You were able to order them. They were built ready to race. Those are facts that I thought everyone in the discussion understood.

I dont think anyone can..or should i say "could have" bought them..sure looked like a "closed" deal to me.

GUMP · 02-26-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsa633

I dont think anyone can..or should i say "could have" bought them..sure looked like a "closed" deal to me.

"The Cobra Jet Mustang (M-FR500-CJ) joins Ford Racing's two successful road racing Mustangs, the M-FR500-C and M-FR500-S, as turn-key race cars available only from Ford Dealers. We encourage you to take advantage of this unique opportunity to help rewrite history by ordering and campaining this new race car". (Ford Racing)

George Wright · 02-26-2009, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsa633

I dont think anyone can..or should i say "could have" bought them..sure looked like a "closed" deal to me.

It's not to late ro order a 2010 Cobra Jet. http://www.fordracingparts.com/mustang/herocard10.asp.

mbrace5 · 02-26-2009, 10:55 PM

George, ck ur pm box

bsa633 · 02-26-2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Wright

It's not to late ro order a 2010 Cobra Jet. http://www.fordracingparts.com/mustang/herocard10.asp.

So "average Joe" can run from the stands and order a new 2010 CJ and take it on the streets next year? That would make it legitimit next year...What about these 2008's...how many on this board(exept hardcore Ford racers )new in 2007 to early 08 that you could get one of these and run Stock eliminator with one like it happened?

02-26-2009, 09:13 AM	#2
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: Mustang MPH? The new CJ is a factory built race car. The kind of car that nhra routinely placed in Factory Experimental when the OEMs were playing before. The 40 year old cars would no longer be the top dogs if nhra started a new factory Experimental class. The CJ discussion centers around Horsepower and the abuse of the classification system by nhra. nhra knows what is going on here but they are too hard up to be an honest power broker in this deal. And the Ford engineers think they need to make twice the amount of rated horsepower to dominate. They told me that at SEMA. A good multiplier for the 396 and 427 motors is 1.45 times the rated Horsepower, by comparison, the new CJ is making use of an 1.8 multiplier. Numbers do not lie. That's the good thing about drag racing, the numbers for this car, will continue to "amaze" the drag racing world and in turn it will prove our point about where it really belongs. __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK

02-26-2009, 11:17 AM	#3
Tim Kish Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 281 Likes: 2 Liked 11 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Mustang MPH? Bruce since you are putting numbers to it let's think about those numbers: 396 (rated 400hp) at a 1.45 ratio would make 580Hp = no way that is all these are making to run 9.70's. Now the CJ, at 331 inches is 83.5% the physical displacement of the 396. Using the 1.45 divided by 0.835 equals 1.74. This is the equivalent performance ratio required based solely on the delta in engine displacement. Not too far off your guess of 1.8 which is what they would have to be at to be performing equivalent at the same HP rating (ie: race weight). Since the CJ is rated 425Hp to the 400Hp of the 396, that ratio is 1.0625, multiply that by our 1.74 and you get 1.845. According to those ratios the CJ is handicapped to the 396. but pretty close again considering your .45 was soft (I think you posted your motor makes more than 580Hp) So does 1-2 mph 1/8th mile really support the thought that these cars are 100-150HP underrated - these means you feel that to perform equivalent to the 396/427 cars the CJ should be another 750-1000lbs heavier. Ignoring that at that HP they couldn't add enough weight to actually run AA, using the old rule that 100lbs is a tenth these cars would slow down 0.8 to 1.0 from where they are today. Now I'm sure there is still ET in these cars but a whole second - get real. At least try to be realistic with your arguments. Let's play devils advocate for a minute - there is 40 years worth of data to show that the Hemi's are overfactored against the 396 and 427 combinations - how many Hemi cars can run with the Chevy's in Stock or Superstock where they are in the same class? It's not for lack of trying. Why aren't we addressing that too? __________________ Tim Kish 3032 SS/GS

02-26-2009, 11:58 AM	#4
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: Mustang MPH? Tim, A good 396 will make approximately 580 (1.45 to 1.5) on the Dyno. A good 427 will make between 600 to 615 (1.45) on the dyno. You can take several of these cars to mine shaft or factored tracks and put up 9.70 numbers. Racers have worked for 20 years to get these numbers on the track, however their baseline dyno power multipliers are still 1.45 to 1.5. When it comes to power, I'll gladly swap a Cheverolet Big Block for your 331 cubic inch Supercharged motor.You aren't denying the power number of 1.8 for your motor! Are you? How much power are you guys making with this CJ motor Tim? A CJ has already put down a 9.78 in only it's second time at a sanctioned event. How much are you guys still holding? At this point, time is on our side. You guys have barged into Stock classes and had your way. Now we'll sit back and watch the numbers. How much power is that little 331 Supercharged motor making? You can do it. __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK Last edited by Bruce Noland; 02-26-2009 at 12:01 PM.

02-26-2009, 12:58 PM	#5
Tim Kish Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 281 Likes: 2 Liked 11 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Mustang MPH? The factors I calculated are a HP/cu in basis. Re-reading your previous assumptions I think you are thinking in HP/rated HP. Relative to engine displacement the ratios are legit, relative to factored HP we're all guessing and I think anything over 700Hp (with the stock pulley) is going to be a stretch. Second sanctioned event after a year of track testing/development. These cars were not slapped together overnight. Now to expect that any new engine/car combination will evolve at the pace the combos like yours have is absurd. Anyone with the knowledge gathered over that 20 years of development that you mention can apply that to a new engine and within a few months be running at a near equivalent level of optimization. You see this demonstrated when guys like Bob Shaw find some obscure combo that no one cared about, build one and run circles around everyone in its class - first time at a sanctioned event. I don't know first hand what the limit is for these cars, i can guess like you (actually my guess might be a littel less dramatic). Probably even agree that these cars will justify some HP and earn it in the near future. I was hoping to see some entered in Gainesville to run for class (haven't looked to see if there are any Chevy hitters entered for it to matter). BTW - no response from you regarding the Hemi's? Don't wanna bring that up as it doesn't benefit your cause? __________________ Tim Kish 3032 SS/GS

02-26-2009, 10:55 PM	#9
mbrace5 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Shelby,NC Posts: 89 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Mustang MPH? George, ck ur pm box __________________ Mark Beaver #290 C/SA 98 Camaro, SS/J-KA