questions concerning christmas tree

[Alan Roehrich]

Bill, once again, it is your perception. Further you want it "fixed for everybody's benefit", but you absolutely and adamantly refuse to consider that others do not want it "fixed" at all, and not all of them drive faster cars, either.

The point was made earlier that if it was a really big deal, and any problem at all for that matter, to the guys running slower cars, they'd have all written letters to NHRA by now. Evidently they have not. Has another "light bulb" come on in your head yet?

[Ed Fernandez]

It came to him in a dream.

[K Stubbs]

Good point Alan, I do not think enough people have a problem with this to get it changed, however, the fact that I live in Arkansas must mean something. Ed, im 37 I dont think I will be in any senior citizen hangouts just yet.

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

What is it?A chihwawa?At least you race S/SS.I feel the rule has been in effect all this time and I have no problem with it.
I see you were in Vegas and was a contributor to the payees.Coulda taken that $170 or so and went to one of the casinos and thrown it down on red or black.

Mr Ed, wow....you've sunk to a new low by insulting my car by calling it a Chihwawa? I hope I get to race you someday, because I'll fondly remember a stocker racer who clicked his car at the 850ft-950ft mark of Bandimere Speedway (circa Mile Highs of '98), and felt he could insult me by coasting across the finish line ahead of me to take the win in the first rnd of elims. I didn't lift, and reeled him back in...I and the fans who watched the whole thing on the former "Winston Vision" screen, witnessed my nipping him accross the stripe, by .003!!! That could be you next time, so let me ask you Mr. Ed...DO YOU WANT TO BE NEXT??? I recall another time people took a swipe at me I won the 1981 Division V Street Eliminator Championship, in a car that makes my current car look like a show car! More recently, how about my false starting in the quarter-finals of the 2007 LODRS D-7 #2 race to Wes McCann and wasting a perfect 15.940 run on a -.013 rt., only to re-race him again two weeks later, and put a package on him that made my "Chihwawa" a 1st rnd winner in a rematch, by .006!!! Given your car hardly has a monster V8 in it, you have "NERVE" calling my car a "CHIHWAWA"!!! Hopefully GOD will smile on my finances in such a way that I'll be able to travel out there to E-TOWN, or to Pa., and play with you D-1 folks....I must say though, I'll really be hoping to line up my little doggie next to your Gremlin and we'll just see who has the biggest bite to follow their bark!!?? I hope to come out there, because knowing you as I do, you'd probably freak-out over having to travel more than 300 miles (one way) to go to a season of drag races---you're safe in D-1!!!

As far as this thread is concerned, although I'm ok too with the way things are, that still doesn't make them right, and what's fair for the Hare (the 2nd car to leave in any kind of handicapped race), should be fair for the Tortoise as well. However, since it likely won't be anytime soon, I'll just revert back to that which produced my '81 Championship...bracket racing to hone up my finish line skills, because as you saw in rnd 1 last week, I didn't "contribute to the payees" due to my starting line performance, it was crossing the line .029 too quickly. I can fix that, and 2010 is the year I plan on doing such!!!

Thanks Ed, you've now given me the appetite of a shark on a feeding frenzy, and I intend on satisfying that hunger!!!

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by GarysZ24

Mr Ed, wow....you've sunk to a new low by insulting my car by calling it a Chihwawa? I hope I get to race you someday, because I'll fondly remember a stocker racer who clicked his car at the 850ft-950ft mark of Bandimere Speedway (circa Mile Highs of '98), and felt he could insult me by coasting across the finish line ahead of me to take the win in the first rnd of elims. I didn't lift, and reeled him back in...I and the fans who watched the whole thing on the former "Winston Vision" screen, witnessed my nipping him accross the stripe, by .003!!! That could be you next time, so let me ask you Mr. Ed...DO YOU WANT TO BE NEXT??? I recall another time people took a swipe at me I won the 1981 Division V Street Eliminator Championship, in a car that makes my current car look like a show car! More recently, how about my false starting in the quarter-finals of the 2007 LODRS D-7 #2 race to Wes McCann and wasting a perfect 15.940 run on a -.013 rt., only to re-race him again two weeks later, and put a package on him that made my "Chihwawa" a 1st rnd winner in a rematch, by .006!!! Given your car hardly has a monster V8 in it, you have "NERVE" calling my car a "CHIHWAWA"!!! Hopefully GOD will smile on my finances in such a way that I'll be able to travel out there to E-TOWN, or to Pa., and play with you D-1 folks....I must say though, I'll really be hoping to line up my little doggie next to your Gremlin and we'll just see who has the biggest bite to follow their bark!!?? I hope to come out there, because knowing you as I do, you'd probably freak-out over having to travel more than 300 miles (one way) to go to a season of drag races---you're safe in D-1!!!

I'm sorry for calling your car a chihwawa.It's really a Shi Tsu.I could care less about your heroic racing exploits in this thread.But if you must.I qualified for 11 straight NED Div 1 bracket finals,when you actually had to drive your car.Raceway Park Pro ET Champion 1984,top 10 11 times.That and $2 gets me on the NYC transit train for a ride.
God has nothing to do with coming East.Save your pennies and maybe you'll be able to make the trip.Be sure to save up enough for the return trip.
And finally grow up.Judging by your post you're either drunk or a big baby with very thin skin.
Cheers and a big woof woof to you.

PS: you were still a contributor.You sucked at the stripe.That's my biggest problem,making it close enough to win.I'm working on it.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by K Stubbs

Good point Alan, I do not think enough people have a problem with this to get it changed, however, the fact that I live in Arkansas must mean something. Ed, im 37 I dont think I will be in any senior citizen hangouts just yet.

As long as you keep far away from Conway Ark. and Tightwad Tx. you should be good to go for many years.Be careful when near Tempe Az.I hear there's a lot of thin skin syndrome appearing in the area.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Bill, once again, it is your perception. Further you want it "fixed for everybody's benefit", but you absolutely and adamantly refuse to consider that others do not want it "fixed" at all, and not all of them drive faster cars, either.

The point was made earlier that if it was a really big deal, and any problem at all for that matter, to the guys running slower cars, they'd have all written letters to NHRA by now. Evidently they have not. Has another "light bulb" come on in your head yet?

Alan,

Many people who race don't comprehend the way this rule plays favorites, so they don't complain. They accept it because they've never known anything else; it's the "norm," and it's "the way it's always been."
That alone, gives it tremendous inertia and acceptance, but when you closely examine what it actually DOES, it's not a good thing. What's good about giving the faster car a free ride to the next round, and removing them from red light jeopardy just because the first car (which had no choice, but to leave first, when he pulled up to stage) left a thousandth (or more) too soon?????????

Your contention would make sense (that everybody would be complaining, writing letters to NHRA, etc.), if everybody understood, IN DEPTH, how this FIRST RED LIGHT system works, but, they don't. I know I didn't, for years and years...

Throughout this discussion, I have asked you pointed questions that you have ignored, choosing, instead, to comment on things that are completely removed from the question at hand. You seem to like to divert attention away from questions I have asked you by commenting on things that have nothing to do with a worse red light rule; for instance:

Alan said,

1. "How about we change the rules so that if the fast car spins, you have to rerun the race? Or, if the track is marginal, the slower car has to put WD-40 all over his slicks?"

If that was an attempt at humor, it was lost on me....


2. "It's not a "software problem", it's a "problem" in YOUR perception."


And, I am responding:
"No, the reality is, it is what it is, regardless of my opinion about it. And, that you don't see a system that rewards a percentage of the cars at the expense of others, as a problem, then I think that that situation may be responsible for the over-long discussion we've had, here."

Alan said,
3. ""Ask Fred Suiter, I pulled up and told him he ran a great race and he kicked my red lighting ***. I took my loss like a man, and like a racer, and tried to do better the next time."

If that had been a heads-up race, I'd commend you on your great attitude and exemplary sportsmanship!

But, if it was a handicapped race in which you had to leave before him, and thereby deprive him of his own red-light jeopardy by bulbing FIRST, then I'd say you were screwed by the system, unnecessarily. What if he had bulbed worse than you? Don't you think you deserved to win that round, just as if you had broken out less than him, on the big end???

Would you like to return to "The first car to break out loses"??? It was that way, for awhile, and if everybody thought like you do, it would STILL be that way. No difference in a red light and a breakout; they're both just cases of poor judgment placing your car at the wrong place at the wrong time. Samo/Samo...



I wrote,
"Hope you'll think about this, and if you can think of any rational, logical, legitimate, reason that it wouldn't be an improvement in the "level playing field" aspect of handicapped drag racing. please tell me; I'm all ears!!!

The silence was deafening....



I wrote, "What doesn't "work" about the current system is, that it prevents EQUALred light "jeopardy." The second car to leave is no longer in jeopardy of a red light, if the first car bulbs. Where is the other side of that coin???

You never answered, I assume, because there is no "other side".... It's ALWAYS beneficial to the second car to leave. Always...

4. You also wrote, "Beware the law of unintended consequences."

But, even after I asked just what might be even ONE of these "unintended consequences," you never even attempted to answer the question. I'm still wondering what one might be.... if, in fact, there could be any.


I wrote:

"For example, you don't need a statistical analysis to conclude that Ellis Buth's W/SA wagon is on the wrong end of this system (virtually, always leaving first), or that the new, 9-second Mustangs are on the "right" end of it.

The Mustangs enjoy an immunity from red lights IF their opponent bulbs.
Ellis's Pinto NEVER enjoys such an advantage in handicapped racing.

I asked, "Where is the other side of that coin" relative to the fact that the quicker car sometimes enjoys this advantage, but there is none.
THAT is an "inexcusable inequity," in my book, because it is unnecessary, now, and accomplishes nothing.

Can you show me the other side of that coin?


5. You wrote,"Again, you ignore the law of unintended consequences simply because it is easy, convenient, and suits your agenda"

No, Alan, I ignore it because I can't think of a single thing that could result from a worse red light rule change that would qualify as a (negative) unintended consequence. Apparently, you can't, either...


If you CAN think of one, even at this late date, I would be VERY INTERESTED in hearing what it might be.. Enlighten me....


6. At some point, you wrote, "And then neither will see the red light, because the tree is behind them, because both cars have launched and then the computer makes up its mind after the fact. MAYBE one or both drivers will see a win light come on, or maybe they won't."

And, this will affect the race how??? I asked at the time, but, you never responded.....


In all your verbiage, you still have not come up with one single reason NOT to change it... none. Even YOU can't logically defend keeping this lopsided rule in effect.


7. Finally, you wrote, "Bill, it doesn't matter what anyone says. You want the rule changed, and nothing else will satisfy you."

Au contraire, mon ami.... if ANYBODY can show me that this rule change is a bad idea, will change racing for the worse, or, will have dire, "unintended consequences," I will clam up like a mobster in front of a Senate, organized crime investigating committee, and apologize for wasting everybodys' time!

I will!!!

But, so far, that hasn't happened.

[Bushwacker]

For several years I have bitched about the 1st redlight rule...off course nobody cared .
If I win a race I want it to be because I earned it....not because of an unfair rule that gives
faster cars an advantage!!! At a Local race it came down to me in my 4cyl Tbird Stocker & a 9 sec full electronics car for the top elim spot. He rolled thru the lights after staging...they told me you win...I told them
Bull****...re-stage us I want to earn this.. we restaged & I won on my merit... I am more proud of that trophy than I am of my wallys. Fix an unfair advantage....not first red ....make it worst red.

[bill dedman]

Thanks for that little vignette, Bushwhacker; you, sir, are a true sportsman... I'd be proud of that trophy, too!!!

[Tom keedle]

Originally Posted by Bushwacker

For several years I have bitched about the 1st redlight rule...off course nobody cared .
If I win a race I want it to be because I earned it....not because of an unfair rule that gives
faster cars an advantage!!! At a Local race it came down to me in my 4cyl Tbird Stocker & a 9 sec full electronics car for the top elim spot. He rolled thru the lights after staging...they told me you win...I told them
Bull****...re-stage us I want to earn this.. we restaged & I won on my merit... I am more proud of that trophy than I am of my wallys. Fix an unfair advantage....not first red ....make it worst red.

..and that's the way sportsman racing SHOULD be...