A/SA First in the 9.80's

[442OLDS]

Without custom heads and manifolds, picking up tenths (legally) in stock, doesn't happen.


VERY WELL SAID!


Maybe there is a "hidden" agenda here.All of the rules for the NHRA UNLEASHED PROGRAM are listed here:

http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/u...0Unleashed.pdf


They all seem to allow NOS..........Hint!

[B Aceves]

[QUOTE=Jack Matyas;180111][QUOTE=Dave Ficacci;180106

Until you run one 4th round heads up at a National event, you wont understand. ....... but by the end of the year there will be around 10 of these at every race here in D1. The chances of running into one of these cars become much more of a possibility.

Dave -- I feel your pain as I too lost earlier this year to a heads-up at a National event during the 4th round - but to an old car - so the roles were reversed . As for there being 10 of these at every event -- that may be a premature thought ..............and they won't all be in the same class if they did show up .[/QUOTE]

No, But they will be running in our Classes Jack and there wont be any roles to reverse
when that happens. Well except in my case lol...

Bob Aceves
#746 E/SA

[Floyd Gomez]

The hardest part for me to swallow is reading the rule book and knowing how limited I am to building my combo. I can't buy a crate motor built for racing because it is not legal for Stock in NHRA. I fell if NHRA wants to let these cars in stock they need to allow older combo's access to new technology. The rules clearly state "No polising, Porting, or coating of the intake or heads" but today it is standard technology from the manufacturer. Let us run newer parts and combo's so we can catch up or design another class in stock like IHRA did for purpose factory race cars. Just my .02 worth

[Mike Mans]

I hope you guys don't think I'm defending the horsepower factoring system, because we all know it has it's flaws. They do USUALLY get ironed out over time, but yes they are present and probably will be for the foreseeable future.

Dave, I'm not saying your combination is bad - but it's easy to see on paper that the new Cobra Jets and Drag Paks are better. I would assume if you look at it from an outsider's view you would say the same am i right? The largest difference is yes, these two auto makers are stepping up and putting their efforts back into drag racing - which desperately needs it. I feel for you guys with the old muscle cars, I really do - they're a great piece of auto history. And I am sure that you guys work hard and spend plenty of money on your car, it's fast - it shows. Does it suck? Yes, and I do know the feeling. We've raced in other classes where we've had competition with these weak factored combinations. No matter how you slice it, it won't change quick enough to make you the fastest guy around again any time soon. This is the same stuff in Stock and Super Stock. We now have Rock Haas with his bad to the bone Cobra Jet that just went 8.97 in SS/DA! But you know, Brian Oakes continues to come right back and go faster yet with his old '69 technology.

The point is this, you're combination isn't bad, your car isn't slow, you don't sit around and wish it to be faster - these new cars are just plain built and manufactured with better technology and NHRA will probably be slow to put the power to where it should be at. Heck, you (and I) are still using old carburetors which aren't even used on leave blowers now days - and these new cars have throttle bodies the size of my waist letting all the air in!

Due point has to be made for the 2010 CJ's in that these motors are different from their 2008 counterparts and that is why they have the 425 rating again. I'm sure it is under-factored, but hopefully for you one of these guys will go out and go 1.25 under and help the cause in a quicker way.

There is one point that I don't think many people in the Stock or even Super Stock community realize on these factory race cars right now. It's not like these are a bunch of bone stock motors with a lot of room for improvement. The Ford motors are assembled in a special engine development area by only two guys. These motors have been refined before they were ever released and there really is hardly any room for improvement. And the fast Drag Pak cars including Irvin Johns and many others to come have horsepower from Jeff Taylor. Now you tell me - you have a guy with all of the latest Comp and Pro Stock technology applied to a stock eliminator motor how could these not be fast?

To respond to your statement if BS and CS were combined, yes that would definitely hurt our program and I would obviously be pissed. But as we've done before - we would have to start off in a new direction. If I were in your shoes I would just get out of A and AA and let those guys beat each other up and be the bad guy in B/SA? What's wrong with that? If there is an advantage to be had, why not take it? If these guys are entering AA and A, why show up in their class and give them an immediate advantage? Let them go out, race each other heads up and go to fast amongst themselves and then hop back in when its manageable?

And to this Alan Roehrich clown, who the heck are you? I've looked over qualifying sheets from the last several years and you are on 1 (Bristol '08)? You asked me for ideas on how to improve your engine program, I would start by actually racing and learning. Or, better yet - call Dave Walther. He has a '69 G/S that went -1.31 in Reynolds last year - looks like he my have figured out some of the stuff you're still scratching yourself trying to learn.

[Alan Roehrich]

Clown?

So, you want to resort to name calling. Class act. Congratulations on already losing the argument.

I'm not driving right now, I'm concentrating on someone else's program, I'll worry about another car for myself when I'm satisfied with his program.

I raced Walther when I drove that car, I happen to know the guy. And Donnie Beeler, too. The car belonged to the guy I crew chief for, he was nice enough to let me drive 3-4 races before he sold it. I don't think Walther is going to be able to help me too much with our 427/425 program. Probably won't be able to help me much with our other big block program either.

Care to open your mouth about more things you don't know too much about?

I've never heard of you either, I guess you just aren't quite as great as you think you are.

[Ken Miele]

Not that it means much, but the 2010 CJ 5.4 for Stock is rated at 435 not 425. I feel your pain Dave, but I have to agree with Mike.

I have been racing along time. When I figured out my combo and was starting to run with the fast guys in the mid to late 90's, it only lasted for a year or so. The 396 guys found something and were walking away from me like I was standing still. I had to deal with it like I have to deal with the new CJ's and DP's.

I think there is more creditability to this thread with racers that have actually had to run these cars. My race was not as crucial as Dave's, mine was in class. Dave was in the four round, so I do understand were he is coming from, but me and Dave are on opposite sides of this debate.

I love the new cars in stock, even though it makes my car less competitive. I think its good for the Drag Racing, I could not imagine racing in the 1960's and having to drive a stocker that was 40 years old.

I'm happy I have a place to race my old relict. who knows NHRA may relax the rules some day and let the old cars run new engines. I know the purist would hate it, but a least we would run with the new cars.

Mike, be prepared to take a lot of heat on this one. Class Racer members can be..... lets just say tough on opposites views, especially this one.

Alan, Mike Mans is a very well know racer with a very fast SS/CS car. Although I would not have chosen those words, I think he may be a little frustrated with your view on this subject. I'm sure he can speak for himself, but I do agree name calling is not the best way to get a point across.

[Alan Roehrich]

Ken,
I respect your views on this a great deal, even if I do not agree with you. After all, you too are faced with the new cars. If we draw one heads up, we'll take it and be sportsmen about it just like you. We really don't want to run B, the car is REAL heavy in B, and we can't with the other engine.

I really don't care how frustrated he is. He isn't even racing these cars, and he wants to tell people who do have to race them how they should feel, and then make cute comments? Nice. We've been working on our stuff for about 5 years now, creeping up on running pretty decent, doing it ALL ourselves, except for a set of heads from Mike Heintz. We have a couple of class wins at the Bowling Green SportsNational Open, where we happened to be fairly fast, and a class Wally from a race where we were just solid and consistent. I don't appreciate being told by someone who is NOT facing these cars heads up to just take it and like it. The no class name calling is just funny. And I was a crew man on a Modified car back when it was a separate class. I think I know just a little about racing.

[Mike Mans]

Ken hit my point exactly. While all of the old pure muscle cars are great pieces of art, there has to be an update to bring in new racers and brand loyalty again. I am sure that GM will come out with a new Camaro to compete against the CJ's and Drag Pak cars when their financial state turns around (at least they better if they hope to have any new cars built in stock). This isn't the exact addage of race on Sunday - Sell on Monday, but it's close. There has to be some type of a car that fans and race enthusiasts can relate to or tell their buddies that they just picked up from the dealership.

I know full and well from Super Stock that there will always be a disadvantage to whatever class/combo you decide to race. It's just to what extent. For me to compete against Dave Bogner and his ultra-fast small bodied Mopar is a bit of a handicap when I'm pushing a whale through the wind with my Firebird. But, I feel that on many of the track surfaces we are faced with in the heat of the summer - I may have a better chance at consistency than if I had a new Cobalt. Now, a Cobalt with our drivetrain would probably be about .07-.10 faster due to the hole you have to punch in the air - but I have just grown so much trust in my car that we deal with it. I could be totally wrong and naive in thinking this car could ever be better than the Cobalts etc.. but we'll stick to working hard on everything else to be faster.

Newer isn't always better, but in some cases - it's here to stay and we all have to adapt in one way or another. Everyone gets so heated when we talk about this stuff, and I know it's because we're all passionate about what we have and what we feel can be done.

My point that Ken touched on is this. If you were to go back to when you were a 20 something guy at the dragstrip back in 1970-75, were you elated to watch 40 year old cars go down the track? No. Back then you would have been watching a Model T roll through the traps. And while I don't see it that way, and I can definitely see that you guys don't either - any new 20 year old guy that has no history in cars - will see all of these 60's muscle cars as Model T's... It's a generational gap.

I have a guy that I work with driving a '90 Mustang in Outlaw 10.5 with a turbo running 8.50's and he's got about $25-30k total in his car. Now, imagine the conversation when I tell him that he would have to spend about $15k to build a killer 5.0 motor to compete in Stock and try to qualify on the top (running 11's). He thinks we are all a bunch of crazies spending endless time and money trying to go fast when power is so readily available with turbos and blowers - why spend a fortune to go 11's or 12's? This is the next generation. They want to go fast, and tune it on a computer or work on the blower/turbo. This is the current factory power plants that they are taught to work on and understand. They have no clue what a Quadra-Jet is, or a Thermo-Quad for that matter. They need a reason to be attracted to Class Racing.

You guys have your generations of cars and nobody is forcing you to change anything about them. But, if a 2010 high performance car doesn't outrun a 1969 high performance car - we have some serious incompetent engine builders at the Big 3.

[Pvt Parts]

Originally Posted by Mike Mans

Ken hit my point exactly. While all of the old pure muscle cars are great pieces of art, there has to be an update to bring in new racers and brand loyalty again. I am sure that GM will come out with a new Camaro to compete against the CJ's and Drag Pak cars when their financial state turns around (at least they better if they hope to have any new cars built in stock). This isn't the exact addage of race on Sunday - Sell on Monday, but it's close. There has to be some type of a car that fans and race enthusiasts can relate to or tell their buddies that they just picked up from the dealership.

I know full and well from Super Stock that there will always be a disadvantage to whatever class/combo you decide to race. It's just to what extent. For me to compete against Dave Bogner and his ultra-fast small bodied Mopar is a bit of a handicap when I'm pushing a whale through the wind with my Firebird. But, I feel that on many of the track surfaces we are faced with in the heat of the summer - I may have a better chance at consistency than if I had a new Cobalt. Now, a Cobalt with our drivetrain would probably be about .07-.10 faster due to the hole you have to punch in the air - but I have just grown so much trust in my car that we deal with it. I could be totally wrong and naive in thinking this car could ever be better than the Cobalts etc.. but we'll stick to working hard on everything else to be faster.

Newer isn't always better, but in some cases - it's here to stay and we all have to adapt in one way or another. Everyone gets so heated when we talk about this stuff, and I know it's because we're all passionate about what we have and what we feel can be done.

My point that Ken touched on is this. If you were to go back to when you were a 20 something guy at the dragstrip back in 1970-75, were you elated to watch 40 year old cars go down the track? No. Back then you would have been watching a Model T roll through the traps. And while I don't see it that way, and I can definitely see that you guys don't either - any new 20 year old guy that has no history in cars - will see all of these 60's muscle cars as Model T's... It's a generational gap.

I have a guy that I work with driving a '90 Mustang in Outlaw 10.5 with a turbo running 8.50's and he's got about $25-30k total in his car. Now, imagine the conversation when I tell him that he would have to spend about $15k to build a killer 5.0 motor to compete in Stock and try to qualify on the top (running 11's). He thinks we are all a bunch of crazies spending endless time and money trying to go fast when power is so readily available with turbos and blowers - why spend a fortune to go 11's or 12's? This is the next generation. They want to go fast, and tune it on a computer or work on the blower/turbo. This is the current factory power plants that they are taught to work on and understand. They have no clue what a Quadra-Jet is, or a Thermo-Quad for that matter. They need a reason to be attracted to Class Racing.

You guys have your generations of cars and nobody is forcing you to change anything about them. But, if a 2010 high performance car doesn't outrun a 1969 high performance car - we have some serious incompetent engine builders at the Big 3.

I've been watching this thread because it mirrors a lot of my experience in SS as I raced a SS/A Corvette. I've always said that if I were to get back in competition again it would be with an A Stock car. Why? Because winning a Stock Eliminator title would give me wins in 3 eliminators and that's a rather small club I'd like to be in. And being that A Stock is the fastest class in the eliminator, it offers a great advantage.

Now to reality. You guys with the older cars need to cowboy up. New technology is here to stay and it's a business decision with NHRA and the manufacturers and the sponsors. Even if you could compete on the same HP rating as the newer cars, you would lose because of the aerodymanics. You need to look to the future which brings me to the next point.

Why do you care about 30 pieces of silver when the real pot of gold is the eliminator win??? Isn't that the real reason you are here??? If not, take your beating like a man and grow up. If it is, just move to another class (B or C) and take out the newer cars one by one.

Real racers are capable of making a car run fast in any class. Dave Ficacci is a perfect example. Don't worry about A/S if you are concerned about running a heads up, move to B or C and take them out. The big Wally's are far more valuable than the mini's. Focus your efforts on winning the eliminator and ignore all of the crybaby nonsense about class. You'll be far better off in the end.

[Alan Roehrich]

GM isn't coming with the new Camaro. Not this year, and probably not next year, or the next. They don't even have their production cars in the guide, and they've been on the street for a while. Think about it.

It'll still cost you $65K or better to run 9's in Stock. Blown CJ or Drag Pack Challengers or not.

You don't get to "work on the blower" in Stock. At least not legally right now. And my stock Buick turbo was on a fairly fast TType stocker a few years ago, you couldn't do a lot to them, either, at least legally.

Changing the character of Stock, so that it becomes "working on computers, blowers, and turbos" doesn't "save" Stock. It makes Stock into something else entirely.

The 10.5 Outlaw guys are using the same piece of asphalt, doing something entirely different than guys racing Stock. I know guys who run that style of racing. They don't "like the kind of rules you guys have". I've got both kinds of guys in the shop. One group likes the challenge of serious rules and restrictions. The other group hates all the rules, and loves bigger blowers, more overdrive, bigger turbos, and more nitrous, they just want to go fast, the cheaper and easier, the better. I don't see the second group being the slightest bit interested in running Stock, ever, even with the blown CJ's.

I don't have any problem at all with either group, I like the guys in both groups. But knowing both groups, I can tell you that you aren't going to get them to "meet in the middle". They just aren't going to run in the same class. And you can't force them to. The one group isn't coming to Stock, and you can't drag the Stock guys to the other group. For the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone would want to try.

You either like the challenge that the rules and restrictions of Stock Eliminator provides, or you don't. Adding purpose built race cars, power adders or not, won't change that. When the "new" wears off, and it isn't "easy" to get another tenth, the people that do not LIVE for that challenge will go somewhere else for the thrill. When you've diluted the class, and run a lot of the people who do live for the challenge off, where will the class be then?

It's not just about right here, and right now. It's about the future of the class. When the people who don't live for the challenge can't go out and buy a really fast (AA, A, or B) car with 3 tenths on the rest of the field and 3 tenths in their pocket, what do you think will happen? I'm not talking about Jeff Teuton, or Irv Johns, or the Howells. Those people are long time class racers, they'll stick with it because they already love Stock and they understand it. I'm talking about all these "new class racers" these cars are supposed to bring. What do you really think they'll do when it tightens up?

If you want the new cars, why is it so important that they be in classes where they have such a huge advantage over other cars? Seriously, why is it necessary to just absolutely kill cars already racing? Why CAN'T they be in their own class? They'll go just as fast as they are now, with the exact same parts, and the exact same cash outlay. Why is it necessary to punish current combinations to add new cars? There would be little or no argument about any of this if the new cars had their own classes. Is it really necessary to give them 3 tenths to show, and 3 tenths to hold, over other racers, just to get them to race? Is it some sort of secret requirement that they be so dominant, just to get people to buy them and race them? Is that what we need to draw "new participants"? Do we REALLY need to do this just to get people to race? If we do, there's no hope for class racing, period. Not if this is what it will be reduced to.

Stock is something different, very different, from most other racing. Only people who love that type of racing understand it, and they'll be the only ones that come to stay. Trying to make Stock into something that it isn't is about 3 times as likely to kill it as it is to save it.

Getting new cars in Stock is great. Getting new people in Stock is even better. But doing it at the expense of the current participants, and at the expense of what makes Stock what it is, doesn't seem to be a good way to do either.