Lack of integrity

[RULER]

Well said Captian Jack, just add mopar jacket and it's covered!!!!

[Dean Roberts]

Jack, your response is bitter and you missed some important facts so I will fill in the blanks.

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

All cars in the guide are built, at least 50 of them. There have been GM paper cars. Ford and Dodge did, in fact, build these cars by the letter of the NHRA rules to fit in Stock, and anyone had a chance to get one, or you can build your own. Who cars how long they have been around? An underfactored car is just that, and it doesn't matter which class or how long it's been hiding in the books. I'm not arguing that they are underrated.

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

Only because it he runs cars that no one cares about. He picked a class to take advantage of the system, good for him. BTW, Ford and Dodge did the same thing. If you don't think GM was thrilled about racers kicking butt with underrated LT and LS cars you are misinformed or one-sided.

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

So someone is a prick because they have done well in life and have money to spend? Have you been to an NHRA race lately and seen the rigs, cars and paint jobs? That would account for 3/4 of the sportsman pits, so 3/4 of the racers are pricks? I think there are a lot of DP and CJ racers who love the brands and want to be a part of history. They may not understand NHRA racing they way you do, but they spent the money and want to run the balls off these cars. Wasn't that the original intent of the class?

[Dgal]

Dean,

There have never been any cars in the guide that resemble what Ford and Dodge are putting on the tracks that didn't fall into Factory Experimental or something similar. To compare these cars to what has been in the guide under normal circumstances is disingenuous.

Don

[Dean Roberts]

I will agree with Don.

Alan, how many ZL-1 Camaros and Vettes have you seen driving around lately? There are many Stockers, albeit cool ones, that were built in limited numbers. Please show me where the rules were re-written? The DPs and CJs are produced and certified. Maybe not for the street, but Stockers never had to be, on 50 had to be built of a certain body style.

We get it, they are underrated and many racers are unhappy. But as you can see, the cars are taking hits on a regular basis and it will all work out.

[Bruce Noland]

Originally Posted by Dean Roberts

I will agree with Don.

Alan, how many ZL-1 Camaros and Vettes have you seen driving around lately? There are many Stockers, albeit cool ones, that were built in limited numbers. Please show me where the rules were re-written? The DPs and CJs are produced and certified. Maybe not for the street, but Stockers never had to be, on 50 had to be built of a certain body style.

We get it, they are underrated and many racers are unhappy. But as you can see, the cars are taking hits on a regular basis and it will all work out.

1990's nhra rule book: Stock

Sixty classes reserved for 1960-or-newer model-year American factory-production automobiles and some foreign and domestic sports cars. Classified per nhra performance rating as listed in the official nhra Stock Car Classification Guide. Only those cars listed in the Guide are eligible for competition. All cars in Stock classes must be factory-production assembled, showroom available and in the hands of the general public. AF through FF class cars limited to 1978 or newer.

But never wishing to miss out on some easy, fast cash this little diddy was added:

OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the Official nhra Stock Car Classification Guide. Special run must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precendent.

The apologists for these cars continue to say - Hey look guys the AHFS is doing it's job and it's only a matter of time before they are rated fairly. How damn gullible do you think we are? We know what has happened here. This issue has festered for nearly two years and it will continue to fester until these new cars are in their own classes or the nhra executives responsible for this mess are fired.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Dean Roberts

I will agree with Don.

Alan, how many ZL-1 Camaros and Vettes have you seen driving around lately? There are many Stockers, albeit cool ones, that were built in limited numbers. Please show me where the rules were re-written? The DPs and CJs are produced and certified. Maybe not for the street, but Stockers never had to be, on 50 had to be built of a certain body style.

We get it, they are underrated and many racers are unhappy. But as you can see, the cars are taking hits on a regular basis and it will all work out.

Certified for what? You cannot license them for street use. You could get tags (license plates) for a ZL1 Camaro, a Thunderbolt, a Shelby, or any number of other cars. You cannot get tags for a new DP Challenger. You cannot get tags for a new crate motor Mustang. A DP Challenger isn't even a complete car, and Chrysler doesn't even have a street legal Challenger in the guide at that weight. You can bring up the ZL-1 all you want, but those cars could be driven home from the dealer, and legally tagged for street use. They were assembled, complete, with all street equipment, ready to drive, when you bought them. You don't see them because there were 69 built, 36 survive, and they're worth about $500K each.

How many crate motor 352 or 428 Mustangs do you see on the street, legally, with tags? NONE. How many of the Drag Pack Challengers do you see, on the street, legally, with tags? NONE. And they're only a year or two old, not 40 year old priceless collectible cars. Drag Packs aren't even produced, you can't even drive them. Hell, at least the old Ford cars, even the ones built at Dearborn Steel Tubing, or what ever place Ford contracted to build them, came complete and able to move under their own power. You can't even buy one of the crate motor cars running and driving. That's a major change from how Stock Eliminator once was.

Like I said, we now have cars in Stock Eliminator that the factory not only never assembled, but they have engines that were never even available in a complete car, period. We have cars that were never even built in the guide at weights they were never sold at. I suppose anything goes.

[Alan Roehrich]

Everyone seems to be real quick to say "well, the AHFS will level everything out, eventually".

How long is eventually?

You do realize that now that the rules are wide open, and the OEM's do not have to even actually build anything, cars or engines, that they can now just release a new "engine", comprised of whatever they and the aftermarket have in the parts bin, and a new "car", every time one of their current paper cars is factored even close to reasonable? They only thing they have to worry about is how big a check written to NHRA it'll take to get the next one into the guide.

With the new open rules, they can produce new killers at will, they don't even have to put anything together, they just have to get a different pile of parts approved. So they can make their own killers obsolete any time they choose, and play the "one up" game until everyone in the class quits, out of frustration or lack of funds.

They've opened Pandora's Box right in the middle of sportsman drag racing, and most people seem to be too blind to see the endless possibilities of things they can do now. It's all cool, some think, because they're on the "up side" right now. Will it all still be so cool when you can't afford the next new $100K piece, and your near new car is worth less than 50% of what you have in it? Good luck with that.

The old adage "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it" couldn't be more appropriate than it is here.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Everyone seems to be real quick to say "well, the AHFS will level everything out, eventually".

How long is eventually?

You do realize that now that the rules are wide open, and the OEM's do not have to even actually build anything, cars or engines, that they can now just release a new "engine", comprised of whatever they and the aftermarket have in the parts bin, and a new "car", every time one of their current paper cars is factored even close to reasonable? They only thing they have to worry about is how big a check written to NHRA it'll take to get the next one into the guide.

With the new open rules, they can produce new killers at will, they don't even have to put anything together, they just have to get a different pile of parts approved. So they can make their own killers obsolete any time they choose, and play the "one up" game until everyone in the class quits, out of frustration or lack of funds.

They've opened Pandora's Box right in the middle of sportsman drag racing, and most people seem to be too blind to see the endless possibilities of things they can do now. It's all cool, some think, because they're on the "up side" right now. Will it all still be so cool when you can't afford the next new $100K piece, and your near new car is worth less than 50% of what you have in it? Good luck with that.

The old adage "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it" couldn't be more appropriate than it is here.

Alan, I am not defending NHRA, however, I am curious too know how many are saying that the OEM's are paying NHRA to approve these cars?

As I understand, the OEM's submit the specs for approval and it is up to NHRA to accept them and racers have also submitted official documents and get them accepted or rejected without paying a fee.

If you are talking about giveaways such as official vehicles, all the OEM's, including GM has done so. In addition, the OEM's, like aftermarket manufacturers an sponsors, they also pay for their advertisements.

The Crux and reality of the issue is that NHRA accepted the horsepower factors that were submitted by the OEM's. I believe that even if the horsepower factors at the start of the induction of the CJ's and DP's were high, racers still would have purchased and raced these cars.

Again, I keep asking and nobody has responded to my question if GM had a Supercharged version of the Camaro or 'Vette in the books and available, if the dynamics of these discussions would be the same.

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Everyone seems to be real quick to say "well, the AHFS will level everything out, eventually".

How long is eventually?

You do realize that now that the rules are wide open, and the OEM's do not have to even actually build anything, cars or engines, that they can now just release a new "engine", comprised of whatever they and the aftermarket have in the parts bin, and a new "car", every time one of their current paper cars is factored even close to reasonable? They only thing they have to worry about is how big a check written to NHRA it'll take to get the next one into the guide.

With the new open rules, they can produce new killers at will, they don't even have to put anything together, they just have to get a different pile of parts approved. So they can make their own killers obsolete any time they choose, and play the "one up" game until everyone in the class quits, out of frustration or lack of funds.

They've opened Pandora's Box right in the middle of sportsman drag racing, and most people seem to be too blind to see the endless possibilities of things they can do now. It's all cool, some think, because they're on the "up side" right now. Will it all still be so cool when you can't afford the next new $100K piece, and your near new car is worth less than 50% of what you have in it? Good luck with that.

The old adage "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it" couldn't be more appropriate than it is here.

Alan, Good post, and something that hasn't been discussed in all the related posts.
If a "crate motor" combo gets beat up too bad, then all the manufacturer has to do is change a few specs, re-submit it as a new combo (with a lower rating,of course) and we're back where we started. They can now play out this game for YEARS.
That is, unless NHRA deals with it heads up, now.
They won't. The title says it all.

[Alan Roehrich]

You forgot one thing, Dean. The NHRA Stock Eliminator rules were rewritten to allow cars that were never certified for production, never met any federal or state emissions or safety standards, and even some that were never even assembled by the factory, ever.

We now have some cars in Stock Eliminator that have engines that the OEM's never put in any car, ever.

That is something entirely different than even any of the previous "paper cars", GM, Ford, or Chrysler. Go ahead and bring up the 98 LT-1 F body. At least the LT-1 was installed by the factory and sold to the public in some car, in some year, at some time. At least it was emissions certified for sale and use on public roads.

What's next, cars that were never sold to the public in any form?After all, they're already listing package cars that never even ran, and won't even move under their own power when you buy them, in the guide.

No matter what else happens, Stock Eliminator has been changed radically. There is now a loophole that you could drive anything through, with a little help from an OEM.