Lack of integrity

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

I heard a story about one guy who requested HP off of a combo and the answer was "Not if YOU'RE building it!"



Um... can someone explain to me how an engine makes a different amount of horsepower in a different body (sans a fresh-air system)?

Although it is an Oldsmobile engine, it is a Cadillac application specific only. It was not available on any other GM models. The engine is the same version and specs of the carburated Oldsmobile version for the applicable years,. However, the Cadillac version has a Throttle Body with the injectors on the intake runners.

[Bob Pagano]

Dean Roberts the ZL cars and vettes were not in stock till they restarted AA, the old rule was 500 mim production

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Dean Roberts

I will agree with Don.

Alan, how many ZL-1 Camaros and Vettes have you seen driving around lately? There are many Stockers, albeit cool ones, that were built in limited numbers. Please show me where the rules were re-written? The DPs and CJs are produced and certified. Maybe not for the street, but Stockers never had to be, on 50 had to be built of a certain body style.

We get it, they are underrated and many racers are unhappy. But as you can see, the cars are taking hits on a regular basis and it will all work out.

Certified for what? You cannot license them for street use. You could get tags (license plates) for a ZL1 Camaro, a Thunderbolt, a Shelby, or any number of other cars. You cannot get tags for a new DP Challenger. You cannot get tags for a new crate motor Mustang. A DP Challenger isn't even a complete car, and Chrysler doesn't even have a street legal Challenger in the guide at that weight. You can bring up the ZL-1 all you want, but those cars could be driven home from the dealer, and legally tagged for street use. They were assembled, complete, with all street equipment, ready to drive, when you bought them. You don't see them because there were 69 built, 36 survive, and they're worth about $500K each.

How many crate motor 352 or 428 Mustangs do you see on the street, legally, with tags? NONE. How many of the Drag Pack Challengers do you see, on the street, legally, with tags? NONE. And they're only a year or two old, not 40 year old priceless collectible cars. Drag Packs aren't even produced, you can't even drive them. Hell, at least the old Ford cars, even the ones built at Dearborn Steel Tubing, or what ever place Ford contracted to build them, came complete and able to move under their own power. You can't even buy one of the crate motor cars running and driving. That's a major change from how Stock Eliminator once was.

Like I said, we now have cars in Stock Eliminator that the factory not only never assembled, but they have engines that were never even available in a complete car, period. We have cars that were never even built in the guide at weights they were never sold at. I suppose anything goes.

[Alan Roehrich]

Everyone seems to be real quick to say "well, the AHFS will level everything out, eventually".

How long is eventually?

You do realize that now that the rules are wide open, and the OEM's do not have to even actually build anything, cars or engines, that they can now just release a new "engine", comprised of whatever they and the aftermarket have in the parts bin, and a new "car", every time one of their current paper cars is factored even close to reasonable? They only thing they have to worry about is how big a check written to NHRA it'll take to get the next one into the guide.

With the new open rules, they can produce new killers at will, they don't even have to put anything together, they just have to get a different pile of parts approved. So they can make their own killers obsolete any time they choose, and play the "one up" game until everyone in the class quits, out of frustration or lack of funds.

They've opened Pandora's Box right in the middle of sportsman drag racing, and most people seem to be too blind to see the endless possibilities of things they can do now. It's all cool, some think, because they're on the "up side" right now. Will it all still be so cool when you can't afford the next new $100K piece, and your near new car is worth less than 50% of what you have in it? Good luck with that.

The old adage "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it" couldn't be more appropriate than it is here.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Everyone seems to be real quick to say "well, the AHFS will level everything out, eventually".

How long is eventually?

You do realize that now that the rules are wide open, and the OEM's do not have to even actually build anything, cars or engines, that they can now just release a new "engine", comprised of whatever they and the aftermarket have in the parts bin, and a new "car", every time one of their current paper cars is factored even close to reasonable? They only thing they have to worry about is how big a check written to NHRA it'll take to get the next one into the guide.

With the new open rules, they can produce new killers at will, they don't even have to put anything together, they just have to get a different pile of parts approved. So they can make their own killers obsolete any time they choose, and play the "one up" game until everyone in the class quits, out of frustration or lack of funds.

They've opened Pandora's Box right in the middle of sportsman drag racing, and most people seem to be too blind to see the endless possibilities of things they can do now. It's all cool, some think, because they're on the "up side" right now. Will it all still be so cool when you can't afford the next new $100K piece, and your near new car is worth less than 50% of what you have in it? Good luck with that.

The old adage "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it" couldn't be more appropriate than it is here.

Alan, I am not defending NHRA, however, I am curious too know how many are saying that the OEM's are paying NHRA to approve these cars?

As I understand, the OEM's submit the specs for approval and it is up to NHRA to accept them and racers have also submitted official documents and get them accepted or rejected without paying a fee.

If you are talking about giveaways such as official vehicles, all the OEM's, including GM has done so. In addition, the OEM's, like aftermarket manufacturers an sponsors, they also pay for their advertisements.

The Crux and reality of the issue is that NHRA accepted the horsepower factors that were submitted by the OEM's. I believe that even if the horsepower factors at the start of the induction of the CJ's and DP's were high, racers still would have purchased and raced these cars.

Again, I keep asking and nobody has responded to my question if GM had a Supercharged version of the Camaro or 'Vette in the books and available, if the dynamics of these discussions would be the same.

[BlueOval Ralph]

Alan, I am not defending NHRA, however, I am curious too know how many are saying that the OEM's are paying NHRA to approve these cars?

In the end noting is FREE there is always somekind of pay back when you ask for favors

[Bruce Noland]

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

Alan, I am not defending NHRA, however, I am curious too know how many are saying that the OEM's are paying NHRA to approve these cars?

As I understand, the OEM's submit the specs for approval and it is up to NHRA to accept them and racers have also submitted official documents and get them accepted or rejected without paying a fee.

If you are talking about giveaways such as official vehicles, all the OEM's, including GM has done so. In addition, the OEM's, like aftermarket manufacturers an sponsors, they also pay for their advertisements.

The Crux and reality of the issue is that NHRA accepted the horsepower factors that were submitted by the OEM's. I believe that even if the horsepower factors at the start of the induction of the CJ's and DP's were high, racers still would have purchased and raced these cars.

Again, I keep asking and nobody has responded to my question if GM had a Supercharged version of the Camaro or 'Vette in the books and available, if the dynamics of these discussions would be the same.

Where have you been? It has been said many times on this site that any new or similar GM car would be met with the same response by the racers.

[hemicop]

Guys, I agree with what you're saying, but just so you know the new DPs & CJs CAN be licensed with some creative paprerwork. As long as you have an MSO, you COULD title them, but it'd be tricky.

[dwydendorf]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

You forgot one thing, Dean. The NHRA Stock Eliminator rules were rewritten to allow cars that were never certified for production, never met any federal or state emissions or safety standards, and even some that were never even assembled by the factory, ever.

We now have some cars in Stock Eliminator that have engines that the OEM's never put in any car, ever.

That is something entirely different than even any of the previous "paper cars", GM, Ford, or Chrysler. Go ahead and bring up the 98 LT-1 F body. At least the LT-1 was installed by the factory and sold to the public in some car, in some year, at some time. At least it was emissions certified for sale and use on public roads.

What's next, cars that were never sold to the public in any form?After all, they're already listing package cars that never even ran, and won't even move under their own power when you buy them, in the guide.

No matter what else happens, Stock Eliminator has been changed radically. There is now a loophole that you could drive anything through, with a little help from an OEM.

Most Stock eliminator cars never came with headers, MSD ignitions, cheater cams, reverse manual valve bodies, 8 inch converters, aftermarket shifters,traction bars, electric water pump drives, and aftermarket spools and axles from the factory but most racers all run these in stock eliminator nowadays. In case you hadn't noticed stock eliminator hasn't been stock for a long time and the new factory cars are just another addition to the list. There is no place in the paragraph about the inclusion of 50 special units the oems may produce that says anything about engines. Go and reread your rule book. It States "OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide. Special runs must include a run of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedent. "

[art leong]

Originally Posted by dwydendorf

Most Stock eliminator cars never came with headers, MSD ignitions, cheater cams, reverse manual valve bodies, 8 inch converters, aftermarket shifters,traction bars, electric water pump drives, and aftermarket spools and axles from the factory but most racers all run these in stock eliminator nowadays. In case you hadn't noticed stock eliminator hasn't been stock for a long time and the new factory cars are just another addition to the list. There is no place in the paragraph about the inclusion of 50 special units the oems may produce that says anything about engines. Go and reread your rule book.

You need to add
Acid ported heads and intakes
Superceded carbs