Crate Engines in NHRA?

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by CrateCamaro

Id much rather be hashing this out over a few cold ones in the garage

Like I said no internet wars...you have your opinion, I have mine and we will agree to dissagree.

Not sure where you are from but we are surrounded by stock car hillbillys that have used up all of our good castings and because of economical times in our "steel town" alot of good castings have been scaled at the wreckers in trade for a 12 pack of cheap beers. All of our wrecking yards are picked of anything 1978 and down...its very rare to see a 441 head...usually its a 336X. Every good set of castings in our yards are gone. I will admit i am a die hard stock eliminator fan....I have been on the hunts for cars and castings only to come up with rotten old junk...our best find was a 69-70 Impala (so smashed and rotten we needed to contact next of kin to tell us what it was) 350 300hp that was in this yard since 1971. Yank'd the heads and intake only to find the heads were so rotten the valves were part of the chamber. There was a q-jet onto of the intake that resembled whats in a box of powdered pancakes. This is what turned me off of "casting number" racing and got me into crate class. Vortec heads, any intake under the stock hood, 750 carb, stocker cam and it will run. And if you want to go 5 under the index no trick parts required...5+ and up buy the trick parts.

Well then there's three trains of thought.
1)Spend the money for a combo with all the "hard to find parts and castings".
2)Look in the guide for a combo that you can find/buy parts for.(For example I run an AMC,there's a ton of parts available if you want to search them out)
3)The description that Dwight used is the ultimate definition of a bracket race car.You can do that.After all we get reminded now and then that class racing isn't suited for everybody.

[Dwight Southerland]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

3)The description that Dwight used is the ultimate definition of a bracket race car.You can do that.After all we get reminded now and then that class racing isn't suited for everybody.

Ed, I have to disagree with you on the statement that what I said is the "ultimate definition of a bracket race car". When I see bracket racing only, I see cars where the performance level of the car is little importance. It doesn't matter if you have a 700 cu.in. motor with two Dominators and a blower on N2O in an Opel Cadette body dialed in at 16 seconds as long as it passes safety requirements. Where you have a clearly defined set of engine specs, body modification specs, limitation on engine definition selection, defined performance expectations, and you are faced with the possibility of racing someone heads-up with no breakout, that is outside the definition of bracket racing.

Besides, I'm not a crusader for crate motor cars or classes. What I am concerned about is why all the vehement reaction to the idea? Any claim to retain the "purity" of Stock Eliminator loses its impact when you consider the liberties of replacement and aftermarket parts rampant throughout the tech bulletins and class guides. It's even more lost when you look at some of the modifications allowed and the inclusion of cars and engines that were never available in production outside the parts counter or special order forms. Even on old cars where we know what they were when they were purchased new, we allow transmissions, cylinder heads, rear ends, etc. etc. that didn't even exist when that car was produced. If the crate motors and cars they are installed in are governed by the same restrictions and the competition venue is the same, why is that such an unacceptable idea?

I personally like your #2 option.

[Alan Roehrich]

Dwight, while we can't undo what has been done already, at least so long as NHRA is involved, a lot of us would like to see the changes stop, here and now. I'll tell you right now, I wouldn't be mad if they told us to put the TH 400 back in the car, the 163 intake back on, and the iron heads back on. If the rule applied to everyone, I'd be just fine with it.

No, we can't turn back the clock, but we can try to keep it from continuing. I'd just really rather not see Stock get further and further from the original intent and character of the class. It's obviously not doing anything to keep the car count from falling, never mind getting it to grow. If the changes continue, there'll be nothing left of the real Stock Eliminator. To me, that would be a tragedy.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Ed, I have to disagree with you on the statement that what I said is the "ultimate definition of a bracket race car". When I see bracket racing only, I see cars where the performance level of the car is little importance. It doesn't matter if you have a 700 cu.in. motor with two Dominators and a blower on N2O in an Opel Cadette body dialed in at 16 seconds as long as it passes safety requirements. Where you have a clearly defined set of engine specs, body modification specs, limitation on engine definition selection, defined performance expectations, and you are faced with the possibility of racing someone heads-up with no breakout, that is outside the definition of bracket racing.

Besides, I'm not a crusader for crate motor cars or classes. What I am concerned about is why all the vehement reaction to the idea? Any claim to retain the "purity" of Stock Eliminator loses its impact when you consider the liberties of replacement and aftermarket parts rampant throughout the tech bulletins and class guides. It's even more lost when you look at some of the modifications allowed and the inclusion of cars and engines that were never available in production outside the parts counter or special order forms. Even on old cars where we know what they were when they were purchased new, we allow transmissions, cylinder heads, rear ends, etc. etc. that didn't even exist when that car was produced. If the crate motors and cars they are installed in are governed by the same restrictions and the competition venue is the same, why is that such an unacceptable idea?

I personally like your #2 option.

Hi Dwight,the description in your post is more akin to abracket car than a traditional stocker.My three options would be the basis for keeping the work stock in Stock Elim.
The only enhacements from stock in my car are a fuel cell,two step and headers.Pretty much everything else is common to my car.And mine is one of the odd ball combos.
It's amusing that the early Fords can't use the alum center section,but BB chevies and Fords get aluminum heads.Two speed autos can use 3 speed autos now.I wont even go ito the DP and CJ cars.
I've been told by some old coot that a 50's or 60's GM car had a magnesium center section.Maybe the GM guys can wrangle that into their cars.
How's the "skunk works project" coming along?

[Chipper Chapman]

When I said parts aren't easy to find for old combos, I meant it. The population of all 3 maritime provinces of canada (where i live) doesen't equal that of most single US cities. Therefore there never were as many castings and far fewer now. So if i find a set somewhere else and them have them shipped to me, At 50 or more pounds each, all of a sudden those old castings aren't cheap. Buying something new over the counter makes a difference. And good luck finding crack free 624 heads around here too. And no, moving isn't an option just to find castings or race. Thats why i started to build a CM car, I asked a simple question and some of you got your panties all up in a knot as if I want to kill stock eliminator.

[Mark Callanan]

Originally Posted by Chipper Chapman

When I said parts aren't easy to find for old combos, I meant it. The population of all 3 maritime provinces of canada (where i live) doesen't equal that of most single US cities. Therefore there never were as many castings and far fewer now. So if i find a set somewhere else and them have them shipped to me, At 50 or more pounds each, all of a sudden those old castings aren't cheap. Buying something new over the counter makes a difference. And good luck finding crack free 624 heads around here too. And no, moving isn't an option just to find castings or race. Thats why i started to build a CM car, I asked a simple question and some of you got your panties all up in a knot as if I want to kill stock eliminator.

How about a motor that is already done?
Or a used motor that still has some life in it
If you want it to happen it will.....

[Ed Fernandez]

Chipper,I'm sure there's guys from your area who come down here to the States who can bring parts back to you.That would solve your rare for your area parts problem.

[CrateCamaro]

Originally Posted by Chipper Chapman

When I said parts aren't easy to find for old combos, I meant it. The population of all 3 maritime provinces of canada (where i live) doesen't equal that of most single US cities. Therefore there never were as many castings and far fewer now. So if i find a set somewhere else and them have them shipped to me, At 50 or more pounds each, all of a sudden those old castings aren't cheap. Buying something new over the counter makes a difference. And good luck finding crack free 624 heads around here too. And no, moving isn't an option just to find castings or race. Thats why i started to build a CM car, I asked a simple question and some of you got your panties all up in a knot as if I want to kill stock eliminator.

Couldnt agree with you more. Lets kill stock eliminator with our crate engines just like they killed modified production. Go burn some tires and books while we are at it...

[CrateCamaro]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Ed, I have to disagree with you on the statement that what I said is the "ultimate definition of a bracket race car". When I see bracket racing only, I see cars where the performance level of the car is little importance. It doesn't matter if you have a 700 cu.in. motor with two Dominators and a blower on N2O in an Opel Cadette body dialed in at 16 seconds as long as it passes safety requirements. Where you have a clearly defined set of engine specs, body modification specs, limitation on engine definition selection, defined performance expectations, and you are faced with the possibility of racing someone heads-up with no breakout, that is outside the definition of bracket racing.

Besides, I'm not a crusader for crate motor cars or classes. What I am concerned about is why all the vehement reaction to the idea? Any claim to retain the "purity" of Stock Eliminator loses its impact when you consider the liberties of replacement and aftermarket parts rampant throughout the tech bulletins and class guides. It's even more lost when you look at some of the modifications allowed and the inclusion of cars and engines that were never available in production outside the parts counter or special order forms. Even on old cars where we know what they were when they were purchased new, we allow transmissions, cylinder heads, rear ends, etc. etc. that didn't even exist when that car was produced. If the crate motors and cars they are installed in are governed by the same restrictions and the competition venue is the same, why is that such an unacceptable idea?

Now why cant everyone see it like you do. Yea look through the pits and take a glance at some of the combo's that never were. Never knew a monza, vega that ever came with a 12 bolt never mind swallow a 30x9 tire but thats a part of the game. I really think that most of these guys think that the crate deal has light HP rating and a shallow index when really we dont. Cars are the same as a traditional stocker, engines are built as a traditional stocker. Looks like a duck sounds like a duck its a duck.

[CrateCamaro]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

Well then there's three trains of thought.
1)Spend the money for a combo with all the "hard to find parts and castings".
2)Look in the guide for a combo that you can find/buy parts for.(For example I run an AMC,there's a ton of parts available if you want to search them out)
3)The description that Dwight used is the ultimate definition of a bracket race car.You can do that.After all we get reminded now and then that class racing isn't suited for everybody.

answers
1) found out quickly that there isnt any stock or superstock guy that sells a "good" combo. They squirrel everything away and sell the junk and advertise it as good.
2)I love AMC's but do I really need to answer why there are so many parts
3)Answers like this will kill stock eliminator for good. Wow racing NHRA stock is apparently like getting in the Union or being accepted into the Town Legion.