4-wide Pro red lights

[junior barns]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

You're right on all counts, Bill.

It's a shame that what is considered "fair" in the Pro categories isn't concidered "fair" in ithe Sportsman ranks., but as you pointed out, that's the way it is. For now.

Thanks for your excellent explanation of how this all works; you did a great job explaining it.

If in stock a heads up run happens and both cars go red, who wins? The one closest to .OOO! How is this not the same as the Pro's??

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by junior barns

If in stock a heads up run happens and both cars go red, who wins? The one closest to .OOO! How is this not the same as the Pro's??

Exactly the same, Junior.

Additionally, if it's fair for a heads-up run, why is it not fair for a handicapped run? It's still drag racing.

I think it's still being done "the old way," because they haven't gotten around to changing the antiquated system that was formulated when the computer software to compare the two lights didn't exist. They did the only thing they COULD do back then; first red light loses.

Unfortunately, in handicapped racing, the slower car ALWAYS leaves first. If he red lights, the second car NEVER has to face "red-light jeopardy." He gets a free ride to the next round.

The slower car never has that advantage (the advantage of never having to face "red light jeopardy.") It's always there anytime he pulls up to the line.

That doesn't seem to make any kind of logical sense. They both paid the same entry fee; shouldn't that guarantee them the same odds of winning?

But, now, NHRA has demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt, that their Comp-U-Link computers HAVE the capability "built in" to compare two (or more) red lights and declare the winner to be the car with the least infraction.

I think it's just a matter of time before NHRA makes this system universal, across the board.

Of course, since it won't make them a thin dime, it will probably never happen... We'll see.

[Bunkster]

Never give up, Mr. Dedman. Your passion to correct this is commendable.

It appears the two sanctioning groups have no intention of fixing this. If only a few track owners had the courage.

[junior barns]

First off I have NO problem with first red light looses. If some do not like this rule then get a faster car. This thread was started about the PRO red lights and they all leave at the same time! So the only way to have a winner if all racers RED light is to have the one who red light the least! Just like in STOCK, if both people red light the one who red lights the least get a GREEN light!

Bill, not that I don't agree with you but until *HRA changes this is what we have. I have won and lost on both sides of this discussion.

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Bill,

If TWO cars advance, then two cars are eliminated. (DUH!)

Which two get eliminated?

If the first two to leave are red-light LOSERS, then the cars with the reaction times closest to a perfect light (.000) would lose. That is diametrically-opposed to the established system for breakouts. where the car with the time closest to the dial-in WINS.

The worse offenders go on to the next round, using that logic.

"First or worse" is a playground for multiple intertpretations. I read where, if three cars in a 4-wide redlighted, the red-lighting car with the least infraction went on to the next round.

That makes all kinds of sense to me.

Probably never happen, but I thought it an interesting possibility.

Right on cue, strike up the band!!!!

BTW Bill, haven't seen your name on a Q sheet in stock or SS.....ever! Why do you bring this drivel here? Take it to your local bracket track

[bill dedman]

Junior; I appreciate your comments. You have been around a while and are used to the status quo.

Most folks are, too.

I am not a Stock or Super Stock Eliminator racer, and this thread started out as a "Pro" subject thread. It was not my intention to turn it into yet another personal soapbox for my opinion. I apologize for hijacking my own thread for just another rant on this subject. But, if an unfair rule is egregious enough to cause people to sell their cars and buy a different (faster) car in order to avoid it, don't you think that is the tail wagging the dog?

Especially, in view of the fact that the whole problem would go away with just an adjustment to the existing software... and a rule change: It would become just "worst red light loses," instead of "first." What is wrong with that???

I can't see how that is unfair to anyone; "universal" red light jeopardy.
The same for every racer.

Unless NHRA figures out a way to make some money from it, it ain't gonna happen though... lol!

And, Bunkster, thanks for your support. You've had a good grasp on this situation for a long time; your comments have not gone unnoticed by me.

This subject affects me in an indirect way; My bracket car suffers the same "first-to-leave" skewed red light jeopardy as you guys do because these little Bracket races follow the example set by NHRA insofar as protocol is practiced. My situation won't change until NHRA changes the way THEY do this... that's my stake in this.

[bigshow2966]

If you're worried about leaving first you can do 2 things:

1. Build a faster car.

2. Learn how to drive the one you have.

Actually you should just sell the car. You haven't even taken it to the track yet and you're already whining about fast cars having an unfair advantage. As long as you feel that way, you've already beaten yourself.

The other side is that when you do draw a fast car he has to judge you at the big end,

I'd rather have a shot at a clean tree myself.

[bill dedman]

Big Show sed:

"If you're worried about leaving first you can do 2 things:

1. Build a faster car.

2. Learn how to drive the one you have."

How do either of these suggestions apply to the omnipresent situation in which the first-to-leave car is required to race under the current rule that guarantees an unequal chance of winning (100% red light jeopardy for the first car to leave, with NO red light jeopardy for the second car to leave, should the first car bulb)???????

They don't apply. When Christmas Tree "handicapped racing" was new, there was a time when the first car to break out was the automatic loser .

The "whiners" got that changed into the long-standing system that is now used, wherein the car that breaks out the most loses. It's done with software. No software existed at that time, that could compare red lights. So, NHRA did the only thing they could and created the "first or worst" rule.. but, there never has been a "worst." It's always the "first red light loses."

Now, we COULD have a "worst red light loses rule," since the software now exists to make it work, and is installed on at least SOME of the Comp-U-Link computers in use..

But we're still stuck in the past, with this antiquated "first-or worst" rule, which has no "worst," as currently practiced; it's just the FIRST...

They fixed the "first can to breakout" inequity when the software to make it possible to compare the two breakouts was developed

Now that the software exists to make it posible to fix the red light problem, why not fix it, too? Let's make it fair for everybody..

As far as " when you do draw a fast car he has to judge you at the big end,".

It is universally accepted that the car that is going faster at the finish line has the advantage insofar as "driving the stripe" goes. That's why you see 1,000-horsepower Super-category cars running active throttle stops in the .90 classes, so they can be the faster car at the finish line; it's an advantage. Don't try to turn that into an advantage for a slower car... it isn't.

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Big Show sed:

"If you're worried about leaving first you can do 2 things:

1. Build a faster car.

2. Learn how to drive the one you have."

How do either of these suggestions apply to the omnipresent situation in which the first-to-leave car is required to race under the current rule that guarantees an unequal chance of winning (100% red light jeopardy for the first car to leave, with NO red light jeopardy for the second car to leave, should the first car bulb)???????

They don't apply. When Christmas Tree "handicapped racing" was new, there was a time when the first car to break out was the automatic loser .

The "whiners" got that changed into the long-standing system that is now used, wherein the car that breaks out the most loses. It's done with software. No software existed at that time, that could compare red lights. So, NHRA did the only thing they could and created the "first or worst" rule.. but, there never has been a "worst." It's always the "first red light loses."

Now, we COULD have a "worst red light loses rule," since the software now exists to make it work, and is installed on at least SOME of the Comp-U-Link computers in use..

But we're still stuck in the past, with this antiquated "first-or worst" rule, which has no "worst," as currently practiced; it's just the FIRST...

They fixed the "first can to breakout" inequity when the software to make it possible to compare the two breakouts was developed

Now that the software exists to make it posible to fix the red light problem, why not fix it, too? Let's make it fair for everybody..

As far as " when you do draw a fast car he has to judge you at the big end,".

It is universally accepted that the car that is going faster at the finish line has the advantage insofar as "driving the stripe" goes. That's why you see 1,000-horsepower Super-category cars running active throttle stops in the .90 classes, so they can be the faster car at the finish line; it's an advantage. Don't try to turn that into an advantage for a slower car... it isn't.

Bill, I've said this a million times. It's the same as every other form of handicapped drag racing. If stock/SS were the only classes that had it that way, then your argument might carry some weight. Again, go work on the majority, the bracket racers. If they were to switch, I'm sure stock/SS would follow suit. But, since you'd get laughed out oF town by them, you just post your brain dead drivel here.


And you knew what you were doing when you started this thread, don't be disingenuous.

Originally Posted by Chad Rhodes

you just post your brain dead drivel here..

Be like the BIG TIME racer who driving DAD'S car didn't check the dial board and WHINED about it !!!
Want racers only ? Then go to the section FOR RACERS ONLY !!
It's not been used for a long time.... :-)