NHRA changes needed for next year-add on - Page 4

pauldilcher · 08-12-2007, 05:37 PM

Rich , Well Said. This Guy Does Not Even Know What Year He Won His Class In At Indy. Way Would We Want Him Running The Show ?

Rich Biebel · 08-12-2007, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldilcher

Rich , Well Said. This Guy Does Not Even Know What Year He Won His Class In At Indy. Way Would We Want Him Running The Show ?

Thanks Paul. I have nothing but respect for the guys who raced the stock and SS classes since day one. I did not. My budget couldn't afford it. I started there but was forced to run various other categories. I won in those categories but always appreciate the real classes where I came from. The reason the bracket and super class engines I build run better than some others is because of my Class racing background. I love class racing but unfortunately it is a categorie that can cause it's own demise. Lets make it so we can all race.... The biggest probelm with this form of racing is the rules are arbitrary. If a car has a favorable HP rating it's fast. If it has a lousy HP rating it's a turd. Where does the HP rating come from and how did it get to the number it is at...well the answer is it makes very little sense and never has. The AHFS was an effort to try and make things more equitable and all kinds of guys bash the effort to death. What a joke. From what I have read Bob Lang had a lot to do with forming the AHFS.....this man works hartder than anyone I'ver ver seen that worked for NHRA and he gets bashed by certain racers. The bitching by Stock racers is unbelievable. No buttons. AHFS sucks, the track is crap, we don't get enough runs.We need more tech. enforce the rules...on and on and on. It's a wonder that Stock still even exists. When the hell was the last time they made a '441 cylinder head? For god sakes they were on '69 vehicles and that was 37 years ago! We are lucky the category even is still tolerated with all the bitching going on. Yes it is a big part of how it all started and was a huge part in the development of the sport, but times change and we need to recoginze these changes.... Man I am really rambling now, but it feels good......

Bill Belden · 08-12-2007, 09:00 PM

Hey Rich
One of the problems is the people wanting changes don't race the class

Rob Lloyd · 08-12-2007, 09:10 PM

I have to agree with leaving the FWD classes alone. But, I'd include in that the FWD SS classes (SS/FS and SS/GS). Since modified compact got rolled into modified a few years ago, they're the only SS FWD classes. Would they really fit into comp? Would anyone understand what a 13 sec Neon was doing racing against the other comp cars?

Alan Roehrich · 08-12-2007, 09:16 PM

What's funny about this is that everyone is okay with making changes. Until it's THEIR ox that gets gored.

AHFS doesn't work. It is a flawed system that is possibly worse than no system at all, because it can very easily be manipulated. And if it can be manipulated in such a way as to avoid having a fast combination get refactored, then it can easily be manipulated to excuse not refactoring a slow combination. It has ZERO compensation for altitude. It also ignores whether the car that made the run that triggers it was even legal, unless it was a record run, or the car gets protested.

Dick Butler · 08-12-2007, 09:30 PM

Rich and Paul, Great posts. Only a little off the facts. No one says there shouldnt be any dial in racing. Please reread the post about everyone is important and everyone deserves a place to race the way they like. Are you proposing no heads up in eliminations because some people are not as fast as others? are you proposing no class at all? I hope not.
Where was it proposed that winning class was the only way to make eliminations? NOT ME! Nothing broke with the fast cars and the class winners method.
I respect and appreciate any opposite opinions.
The TOP/SS and TOP/STK run heads up at a meet where they already came to participate in the BRACKET eliminator for entry points to National events. The same cars which people already have, and they just want to race some heads up more often than the two events a year that more than 2 of them enter. We pay EXTRA money too. One tank of gas , TWO races for money and fun.
The opposite of more heads up racing is LESS. More cars and combos. More hp/body combinations=fewer cars in any one class just by statistics. You can only divide the number of racers by so many classes and have a race for any of the 80 cars accepted as entrants at an event.
Entry paying S and SS racers at a points meet or an OPEN is NHRAs way of showing success at the bank.It pays the bills. Any spectators come? any news releases?
It took a LONG time to dilute the racing so far. It will be a long time working together to make it 50/50 for class racers again from the 95/5 were are seeing now;.
Do you think a New Mustang heads up against a new Camaro or Charger would excite any current kids? (assuming the show is publisized ) You bet the Manufacturers are just waiting for this one and thats something I KNOW IS BEING DISCUSSED IN DETROIT TODAY. This is fact from good sources. Here come some sponsors for sure.
Thanks for your comments.
Mr Dilcher I have a few Indy and Columbus and Brainerd and Topeka and Memphis trophies as well as Bowling Green Sports and Gainesville for class. Everyone of them was important and remain that way because I achieved the wins over GREAT drivers and FAST cars. I even won Indy Points meet once.and was R/up at 3 0r 4 more. Thanks for asking.

Stocker 2 · 08-12-2007, 09:48 PM

Rich Biebel said it all and its worth re-reading! And he is correct on his facts.

<"For the UMTEENTH TIME Stock& Super Stock racing nearly died in the 70's due to a number of things. One of them is HEADS-UP racing. Right now car counts are high in some divisions but promote changes that make heads-up races more likely and those same car counts will dwindle. Young guys racing with 2 steps and buttons can win.....old guys with piles of money can't dominate.....keep harping on the heads-up form of racing and pretty soon it will look like SS eliminator in 1975...NOBODY SHOWS UP. You can't sell heads-up racing to anyone but a select few that want it and can afford it. What is the car count for Top Stock or Top SS? I know how many cars run Top stock and Jr. Stock around here. Is it fun? I'm sure it is because nothing beats a heads-up race but if that is all there was going on racing in Stock and SS would be DEAD!">

The system is not broke. Stock and SS class racing is strong and doing well without a switch to heads up where only a select few would be competitive. The lack of participation in Top SS and Top Stock in as large a division as 3 goes to show just how very few racers really want to see a major change to heads up racing.

Dick Butler · 08-12-2007, 10:01 PM

We have had a great discussion. Thanks and at this point I will end my comments and continue to work with anyone who cares to address S and SS issues together and improve class racing. Thanks
See you at the Races.

Stocker 2 · 08-12-2007, 10:17 PM

And the rest of us will continue to discuss leaving Stock and SS alone because we know it is doing fine as it is.

icebrrrg · 08-13-2007, 07:54 PM

Best wishes to you Mr. Butler on making good changes to Super Stock and Stock. I do not agree with all of the details (for example - I agree with Jim Wahl on keeping FWD classes separate in Stock), but I do agree with the goals expressed. My brothers first Super Stock national event race was the '74 Gators - they ran a 65 Chevelle wagon (283 ci/220 hp) in what was SS/Q at the time. Many of the small block Chevy stars of that time were also running SS/Q (8 cars total in the class) - Ron Traffanstedt, Jimmy Bridges, the Cierri Brothers (btw - Anthony Cierri won SS over Lingenfelter at the Gators a couple of years later) and more. My brother Paul took runner up in class that year with a redlight against Traffanstedt in the Q final, but went on to do well in Div 2 SS. Traffanstedt's old SS/L Chevy II would win SS at the Gators some years later with Don Wolf driving. There was always alot of excitement among fans and racers when it came to competing in class and watching awesome class racing.

Unfortunately the dillution of SS has led to too much tepid class racing today. Still lots of great cars and drivers out there, but outside of SS/AH, great class racing is few and far between. My favorite matchup in more recent years was a pair of great SS veterans - Schindler vs. Bridges in SS/E, but now both of them are running different classes. If anybody has any desire for more fan and sponsor interest, changes need to be made. I believe that Evan Smith alluded to this in the racer's posting section some time ago. Saw lots of good inputs from folks like Lynn McCarty, Chad Rhodes and others on this thread too.

My favorite cars in Comp are the Super Mod cars of racers like Pritchett, Houghtaling and Wisecarver. As much as I like the Mod cars, I do not believe that they belong in SS and strongly agree with the point of taking them out of SS and putting them in Comp. One step in rebuilding SS is defining a category identity. Without it, you may as well throw out the rulebook and allow anything from jets to skateboards compete. In my opinion, the only cars that should compete are the ones have to deal with dreaded acronyms like "AFHS" and words like "teardown". Unfortunately many of todays greatest drivers are racing the modified-type cars and if the trend toward that type of car continues, the number of traditional SS and GT cars will dwindle.

I am adamantly opposed to this idea of getting rid of heads-up races in the eliminator. If that were ever to occur, it will be time to throw away the rulebook and change the name of the category from "Super Stock" to "Super Pro". Why even bother to have classes then?

Just my $.02...

Mark Berg
current non-racer

08-12-2007, 05:37 PM	#31
pauldilcher Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 425 Likes: 1 Liked 52 Times in 9 Posts	Re: NHRA changes needed for next year-add on Rich , Well Said. This Guy Does Not Even Know What Year He Won His Class In At Indy. Way Would We Want Him Running The Show ?

08-12-2007, 09:00 PM	#33
Bill Belden Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: York, PA Posts: 241 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: NHRA changes needed for next year-add on Hey Rich One of the problems is the people wanting changes don't race the class __________________ Bill Belden Retired Stock Eliminator [emailSTK1100@comcast.net[/email]

08-12-2007, 09:10 PM	#34
Rob Lloyd Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Whitmore Lake, MI Posts: 60 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: NHRA changes needed for next year-add on I have to agree with leaving the FWD classes alone. But, I'd include in that the FWD SS classes (SS/FS and SS/GS). Since modified compact got rolled into modified a few years ago, they're the only SS FWD classes. Would they really fit into comp? Would anyone understand what a 13 sec Neon was doing racing against the other comp cars? __________________ Rob Lloyd 3728 BF/S

08-12-2007, 09:16 PM	#35
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,115 Likes: 1,572 Liked 1,828 Times in 414 Posts	Re: NHRA changes needed for next year-add on What's funny about this is that everyone is okay with making changes. Until it's THEIR ox that gets gored. AHFS doesn't work. It is a flawed system that is possibly worse than no system at all, because it can very easily be manipulated. And if it can be manipulated in such a way as to avoid having a fast combination get refactored, then it can easily be manipulated to excuse not refactoring a slow combination. It has ZERO compensation for altitude. It also ignores whether the car that made the run that triggers it was even legal, unless it was a record run, or the car gets protested. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S Last edited by Alan Roehrich; 08-12-2007 at 09:23 PM.

08-12-2007, 09:30 PM	#36
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: NHRA changes needed for next year-add on Rich and Paul, Great posts. Only a little off the facts. No one says there shouldnt be any dial in racing. Please reread the post about everyone is important and everyone deserves a place to race the way they like. Are you proposing no heads up in eliminations because some people are not as fast as others? are you proposing no class at all? I hope not. Where was it proposed that winning class was the only way to make eliminations? NOT ME! Nothing broke with the fast cars and the class winners method. I respect and appreciate any opposite opinions. The TOP/SS and TOP/STK run heads up at a meet where they already came to participate in the BRACKET eliminator for entry points to National events. The same cars which people already have, and they just want to race some heads up more often than the two events a year that more than 2 of them enter. We pay EXTRA money too. One tank of gas , TWO races for money and fun. The opposite of more heads up racing is LESS. More cars and combos. More hp/body combinations=fewer cars in any one class just by statistics. You can only divide the number of racers by so many classes and have a race for any of the 80 cars accepted as entrants at an event. Entry paying S and SS racers at a points meet or an OPEN is NHRAs way of showing success at the bank.It pays the bills. Any spectators come? any news releases? It took a LONG time to dilute the racing so far. It will be a long time working together to make it 50/50 for class racers again from the 95/5 were are seeing now;. Do you think a New Mustang heads up against a new Camaro or Charger would excite any current kids? (assuming the show is publisized ) You bet the Manufacturers are just waiting for this one and thats something I KNOW IS BEING DISCUSSED IN DETROIT TODAY. This is fact from good sources. Here come some sponsors for sure. Thanks for your comments. Mr Dilcher I have a few Indy and Columbus and Brainerd and Topeka and Memphis trophies as well as Bowling Green Sports and Gainesville for class. Everyone of them was important and remain that way because I achieved the wins over GREAT drivers and FAST cars. I even won Indy Points meet once.and was R/up at 3 0r 4 more. Thanks for asking. Last edited by Dick Butler; 08-12-2007 at 09:38 PM.

08-12-2007, 09:48 PM	#37
Stocker 2 Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 137 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: NHRA changes needed for next year-add on Rich Biebel said it all and its worth re-reading! And he is correct on his facts. <"For the UMTEENTH TIME Stock& Super Stock racing nearly died in the 70's due to a number of things. One of them is HEADS-UP racing. Right now car counts are high in some divisions but promote changes that make heads-up races more likely and those same car counts will dwindle. Young guys racing with 2 steps and buttons can win.....old guys with piles of money can't dominate.....keep harping on the heads-up form of racing and pretty soon it will look like SS eliminator in 1975...NOBODY SHOWS UP. You can't sell heads-up racing to anyone but a select few that want it and can afford it. What is the car count for Top Stock or Top SS? I know how many cars run Top stock and Jr. Stock around here. Is it fun? I'm sure it is because nothing beats a heads-up race but if that is all there was going on racing in Stock and SS would be DEAD!"> The system is not broke. Stock and SS class racing is strong and doing well without a switch to heads up where only a select few would be competitive. The lack of participation in Top SS and Top Stock in as large a division as 3 goes to show just how very few racers really want to see a major change to heads up racing.

08-12-2007, 10:01 PM	#38
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: NHRA changes needed for next year-add on We have had a great discussion. Thanks and at this point I will end my comments and continue to work with anyone who cares to address S and SS issues together and improve class racing. Thanks See you at the Races.

08-12-2007, 10:17 PM	#39
Stocker 2 Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 137 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: NHRA changes needed for next year-add on And the rest of us will continue to discuss leaving Stock and SS alone because we know it is doing fine as it is.

08-13-2007, 07:54 PM	#40
icebrrrg Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Central Florida Posts: 90 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: NHRA changes needed for next year-add on Best wishes to you Mr. Butler on making good changes to Super Stock and Stock. I do not agree with all of the details (for example - I agree with Jim Wahl on keeping FWD classes separate in Stock), but I do agree with the goals expressed. My brothers first Super Stock national event race was the '74 Gators - they ran a 65 Chevelle wagon (283 ci/220 hp) in what was SS/Q at the time. Many of the small block Chevy stars of that time were also running SS/Q (8 cars total in the class) - Ron Traffanstedt, Jimmy Bridges, the Cierri Brothers (btw - Anthony Cierri won SS over Lingenfelter at the Gators a couple of years later) and more. My brother Paul took runner up in class that year with a redlight against Traffanstedt in the Q final, but went on to do well in Div 2 SS. Traffanstedt's old SS/L Chevy II would win SS at the Gators some years later with Don Wolf driving. There was always alot of excitement among fans and racers when it came to competing in class and watching awesome class racing. Unfortunately the dillution of SS has led to too much tepid class racing today. Still lots of great cars and drivers out there, but outside of SS/AH, great class racing is few and far between. My favorite matchup in more recent years was a pair of great SS veterans - Schindler vs. Bridges in SS/E, but now both of them are running different classes. If anybody has any desire for more fan and sponsor interest, changes need to be made. I believe that Evan Smith alluded to this in the racer's posting section some time ago. Saw lots of good inputs from folks like Lynn McCarty, Chad Rhodes and others on this thread too. My favorite cars in Comp are the Super Mod cars of racers like Pritchett, Houghtaling and Wisecarver. As much as I like the Mod cars, I do not believe that they belong in SS and strongly agree with the point of taking them out of SS and putting them in Comp. One step in rebuilding SS is defining a category identity. Without it, you may as well throw out the rulebook and allow anything from jets to skateboards compete. In my opinion, the only cars that should compete are the ones have to deal with dreaded acronyms like "AFHS" and words like "teardown". Unfortunately many of todays greatest drivers are racing the modified-type cars and if the trend toward that type of car continues, the number of traditional SS and GT cars will dwindle. I am adamantly opposed to this idea of getting rid of heads-up races in the eliminator. If that were ever to occur, it will be time to throw away the rulebook and change the name of the category from "Super Stock" to "Super Pro". Why even bother to have classes then? Just my $.02... Mark Berg current non-racer