New HP

[SS Engine Guy]

Originally Posted by Chuck Beach

3) throw out what this class was built on ..... PERFORMANCE

Race and SHUT UP ....

You will never have a PERFORMANCE class when performance is based on shoe polish and a system of random numbers (hp factors) manipulated by the brake pedal, timing or excess ballast. However, I can fully understand trying to protect your combo under such a system. Truthfully no one should be able to protect a combo in a perfect world. (ET vs. MPH)

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Jared Jordan

That was some of the best air anyone's ever seen when Henson ran the 9.89 at Belle Rose. Ask him. He'll tell you the same thing.

That combo at 457 hp is a total waste of time if you want to be "the guy" in A or AA/SA. Yes, it is still somewhat competitive and a good one will still go fairly fast, but not fast enough. Why do you think West/Henson built the GTX? Fred even tried to put a 4-speed in the Challenger to get around the HP factor. Think he would have done all of that if he thought he could go to Indy and win at 457 hp?

I know how much power those motors make (had a few of them on our dyno) and let me tell you Fred's motor had the same hp as the other ones that I've seen dyno'd. Why haven't you heard about the other ones? They were done after Fred's and now weigh 3840 lbs in A/SA.

Jared, I'm well aware of the conditions under which Fred made that pass. I'm not sure it was better than the mine shaft air seen at Atco or Mission. The fact remains that very few people will be "the man", regardless of the combination.

The Challenger, with the Hemi, with 2 four barrel carbs, and Hemi heads with big valves, (the Hemi has 2.25 and 1.94 valves compared to 2.19 and 1.84 for the 427, or 2.19 and 1.88 for the ZL-1 and L-88, not to mention nearly twice as much available carburetion)has to weigh 190 pounds more than the 427 Camaro with aluminum heads in A/SA, only 110 pounds more than a ZL-1 Camaro, and only 150 pounds more than an L-88 Corvette. In AA/SA, the Challenger has to weight 3595, 162 pounds more than a 427 Camaro with aluminum heads, 87 pounds more than a ZL-1 Camaro, and 125 pounds more than an L-88 Corvette. Word is there are a couple of really nasty ZL-1 and L-88 cars in the works (Calabro and Fasano are already fast, and Craig Couris is no daisy, either), and there are so few of those cars out there that if any of them hit the trigger, they'll get HP.

And honestly, the 427 Chevy and the Hemi are probably both out of luck to be top dog in A/SA or AA/SA, IF one of the other combinations really wants it. My guess is if Barton or Shaul really want to step up, they can take class and/or the record, the only question is if they want it enough. There might even be a Ford or two that can do it.

Honestly, I hated to see the Hemi get hit, and I know Fred did not mean to do it.

[Jared Jordan]

Allen,

Didn't mean to imply that the Hemi was the only over-factored combo in A or AA/SA. I know the 427 has been worked just as hard (if not harder...) than the Street Hemi has been. I'll never forget the weekend Bobby D dropped into the 9's for the first time. We were all rooting for him. I'm also well aware of the differences between the two engines. Believe it or not, I do know a little (emphasis on "little") about Chevrolets! LOL

The Max Wedge and NASCAR Hemi are better combos than the Street Hemi in the Challenger/Barracuda. Due to the flaws in the AHFS system, the Street Hemi in the B-Body is still extremely competitive. I would even venture to say that's the best combo for the class at the moment. Barton's car is very fast and I know Shaul's is as well, but I'm not certain that the Street Hemi can't outrun them in a B-Body.

The A and AA/SA wars should get very interesting in the next couple of years when the new Mustangs and Challengers start popping up. Then we can start this whole debate all over again.

[OLD GUY]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

LOOKED at them? I know a guy locally who runs a REAL one. Yes, he carries a lot of weight. But it runs pretty damned well, especially considering he has not really thrashed on it. Like I said, word is Henson was already at the weight currently required when he made the pass. Yes, he made it hard on everyone else running the combination. But no, he didn't completely kill it, and no, everyone didn't quit running it.

Alan, What is a Real one and what do you consider to be running pretty dam well? Since we know pretty much who everybody is that has an E- Body Hemi in the country that runs well, I guess we better find out who your local buddy is.YES, FRED KILLED THE E- BODY STREET HEMI.. Count how many you saw at Indy in the last 2 years. I think Chris Howes was the only one and I don't think he could qualify. I believe he ran a best of 10.38 last year at Indy. I saw that motor on the dyno and it made as much power as Hensens 9.89 motor made on the same dyno.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by OLD GUY

Alan, What is a Real one and what do you consider to be running pretty dam well? Since we know pretty much who everybody is that has an E- Body Hemi in the country that runs well, I guess we better find out who your local buddy is.YES, FRED KILLED THE E- BODY STREET HEMI.. Count how many you saw at Indy in the last 2 years. I think Chris Howes was the only one and I don't think he could qualify. I believe he ran a best of 10.38 last year at Indy. I saw that motor on the dyno and it made as much power as Hensens 9.89 motor made on the same dyno.

There's a guy here locally named Winkie Knight, he and his brother have an original Hemi car (Challenger or 'Cuda, I can't remember off hand) he runs. It's blue, and he's had it for as long as I can remember. It's not a rocketship, but it's not a total slug, either.

I was not at Indy this year. Chris was there last year, I think, and running 10.60's.

[OLD GUY]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Damned right I have. Bobby has had his car, and the same combination, for as long or longer than I've had my wife, and we've been married 22 years. Super nice guy. Ask his engine builder, Gary McGlasson, they've got more money in cams and headers that don't work laying around than most people have in a decent car. I can't remember how long Joe and Hal have had that nasty little green car.

We're two tenths slower than Bobby, or Joe and Hal. We're getting there. And we're considered to have a pretty decent 427 car. Most everyone else is two tenths or more slower than either Bobby or Joe and Hal. That's why the average for the car and engine does not get hit. The same engine is in the 66 Corvette, the 69 Chevelle, and the 66-69 Impala. All of that keeps the average down.

Now that we have the AA class, the Hemi isn't out of anything. Besides, I guess you've never seen Barton run, and let's not forget Shaul and the other non Hemi Chryslers. Further, word has it when Henson ran that high 9.80, the car already weighed about what it had to after he got the HP the next Tuesday.

I won't bring up much on the Fords, there's been enough bandwidth spent on them to start another Internet. Let's just say they're no less underfactored than any of the 427 or 396 Chevies.

The truth of the matter is When Fred went the 9.89 he never weighed and there was no fuel check. On that day nobody but Fred knows what he weighed. The day before he was 15 lbs over at 3720 lbs. Trust me there is a whole lot more to this thing than you know.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by OLD GUY

The truth of the matter is When Fred went the 9.89 he never weighed and there was no fuel check. On that day nobody but Fred knows what he weighed. The day before he was 15 lbs over at 3720 lbs. Trust me there is a whole lot more to this thing than you know.

Could be. I was told by someone who was there that the car was heavy and Fred did not think it would run that fast. Maybe I was not told the truth.

[OLD GUY]

Alan, Fred didn't weigh after the run because he red lit and he was warned by a very respected NHRA tech person prior to the run that he better be careful because the air is dripping oxygen this morning and you will go more than 1.40 under. So once again, nobody but Fred knows what the car weighed. Fred also got that combo hit twice before and should have known better. That same motor is in Ronnie Wests GTX but is rated 27 hp less. at 430 hp. Like I said before there is a whole lot more to this story.