Where are the lower class cars?

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Phillip marvetz

Well My V/SA has gone to a M/SA. 11.90s are much funner than 14.00s. :-)

That's cool Phillip, and for your Coronet, I think it's much closer to where it belongs with that body style....I think of Bob Marshalls SS/BA, or the Former similar car that Dennis Mauer & Judy Lilly used to campaign as well, when I see that car.

Someday (maybe) I'll get to campaign two cars, and the second one will be something faster, but for me now, winning with an oddball slower roller (and the extra challenges there in), are fun for me...mainly because thanks to IHRA, I'm still competitive without breaking my bank account...

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Frito

I did notice Randall Campball at Bristol made it down to the semi finals in his N/SA, he was dialed at 14.05. So much for the lower class cars, or trucks, being a disavantage. The 4 second spot against Keith Lynch was interesting to watch and had a lot of folks in the stands on their feet watching the finish line.

Cool

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Bob Don

Randall Campbell ran in R/SA. (N/SA index is 13.00)

That made it even more cool, since it was an R/SA car...

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Michael - Regulations ? I don't see it .My thoughts are they are dwindling because mostly they are grass roots racers who simply can't afford to keep up in these hard economic times .I just don't see the nudges .......

Frankly they are great for our sport - some fans love to root for the slow - lumbering cars - yet others like the big guns .Nothing better than to see an R/SA being chased by a 9 second late model or even an early Hemi or God forbid - a '69 Camaro .Doesn't matter which you want to win - it's always a great race ! ! !

x2 Jack.

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

Two easy examples: The elimination of deep staging and the consolidation of FWD classes.

(Unrelated) Do you still have your Ventura?

Now, Michael, I have to agree with you here...thank GOD for IHRA, although I never was good at the deep staging part.

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Richard Grant

Jack, some of the nudges are:
1. eliminating running all classes at all national events. In the past if there were two or three fairly close national events, you could choose the one that best fit your schedule or needs.
2. Reducing the index's by .3. Now many cars that could barely run their index can't make the break especially if the weather doesn't cooperate.
3. Eliminating the attitude factors making it even more difficult to run under the index.
4. Increasing entry fees in a down ecomony.
5. Changing the AHPS so there is no place where you can run fast without receiving HP. It's taking the fun out of racing for many racers.
6. Fewer and fewer tracks which causes longer drives at higher gas prices.
Other factors have been stated and I am sure that other factors have not been pointed out.
The reason that race attendance is down is not one big factor even considering the factory cars. It's a bunch of little things done by people who don't understand what motivates the average sportsman racer. Many things are out of NHRA's control but this considered they must first make the right decisions about the things that are under their control.

Well said Richard...another reason I've been glad to embrace the IHRA Finally in the western 1/2 of the country!

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

...with a low 11-sec crate motor car each time, neither of which qualifies as a lower class car. We've spent a great deal of time on the phone discussing reaction times, even in regards to a fast car like yours. How many people do you think could hit the tree, both good and consistent, in a lower classed car without deep staging? There aren't too many people out there wired like Billy Nees (insert your own joke here).

The elimination of deep staging wasn't a stroke of the pen that eliminated slow cars and instituted factory race cars overnight. It was a nudge that was just one contribution to a chain of events, in my opinion. It wasn't long after deep staging was eliminated that you started to see a number of drivers move from lower class cars to faster cars. (always exceptions of course, like Lang) Not saying it's right or wrong, but it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy: The more people that chose to run fast cars, the more people felt like they needed fast cars to compete. Obviously, each individual has their own reasons for building a given car, but it seems that the many people are led to the same conclusion. There has been a definite change in the general makeup of the field since I started racing.



Yes and no. I think there are too many classes as a whole, but that's another discussion that has already been debated and is currently dead on arrival. Both then and now, there are reasonable ways to handle consolidation of classes. Going from 16 classes to 5 (and the way in which it was implemented) was overkill. The irony is that many people feel it was ok for the FWD cars, but it's fought against strongly when the same idea is applied to other cars. There was a decent number of FWD cars out there when I got started. Where are they now? Is it reasonable for a car to be 225# heavy for one class and 400# light for the next? Is it reasonable for a car that could run -1.000 under the old format now run -.30 under? Would either of these examples be tolerated for a B/SA combination?

Was there a downside to "too many" FWD classes before outside of Class singles? While it is after the fact, today's Class Eliminations structure eliminates that issue. What would the effect of a more reasonable class structure be today? Does it help or hurt the sport or class? 'Who cares about FWD cars anyway? It's just a couple of cars.' A couple of cars here and a couple of cars there, gone (for a multitude of different reason), and you wonder why we have discussions about car counts...

The horse may have already left the barn. The level of competition today and the cumulative years of strategic knowledge (two things intertwined) are ultimately going to lead the majority of people to build faster cars. Does it help or hurt the sport when the Billy Nees's of the sport are gone? The only thing driving cars back down into lower (more like mid-range) classes right now, in my opinion, is the prospect of numerous heads-up runs in the growing ranks of the upper classes.

$.02,

I couldn't agree more Michael!

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Richard - Lets try this one item at a time
1) - There are just not enough cars to run class at every national event
2)The .3 reduction was for everyone- not just the lower class cars .
3)Again the factors are for everyone
4)So you want more money with lesser entry fees - how will that work ?
5)You want it both ways - on one hand you say you can't run fast without the factors and on the other you want to run fast without penalty .
6)Fewer tracks and gas prices affect everyone .

And yes , the NHRA ( and any other sanctioning body ) must make wise decisions but they must be good for everyone including them .

Somehow even with writing this there are those who have their own agenda and I feel like I'm pissing in the wind ............pretty strong words even from me !

Ok Jack, I'll give you a different spin on your six responses to Richard:

1. True there aren't enough cars to run class at every national event, but since NHRA has chosen to increase our national event entry fees, membership and competition number fees, and allowed the manufactures to place more restrictions on how contingencies are earned, I'm not suprised as to why...over and beyond there still having some divisions that are geographically too large in America to make it more palatable for many racers budgets and time (starting with mine).

2. Those who can afford faster class cars probably have extra money to spend on the parts/work they can do to make their already faster cars more so, much easier than a slower roller likely can, so although the index change affected us all, faster class racers can more easily deal with it.

3. I'll agree with that one, but again see above.

4. I'm not sure how you get more money with less entry fee costs? Based on what I have to pay now for a national event entry, as opposed to the contingencies available for me to claim, I'm paying more for less...circa 1999 when I paid less than $200 bucks to race in a national event, and was able to enjoy winning $500 in class contingency money. Today's entry fees for national events are nearly double what they were then, and the best I can do in class is $50. What's fair about that?

5. I want the factors back the way they were, and my car isn't nearly quick enough to be concerned about any penalties. Since that won't likely happen, I'll be greatful again for a growing IHRA presence out west.

6. I'll agree with you on the first part of your statement, but again refer to my response #2 for the second part. Since most racers have more in their engines (money wise) than I do in my whole car, if I could afford to campaign a car like yours, I would still be racing (even inspite of the higher gas prices, that although are still high, are better than they were 1-4 months ago).

I wish you well too with your car, and I'm glad you're able to continue racing it. Since my budget isn't as good as yours is (thanks in a large part, to the lack of caring about MADE IN THE USA, by many around us), I do the best I can with what I have. This year so far has been much better for me with regards to the level of racing I could do, and thanks to IHRA's apparent greater caring for us class racers, now I can enjoy major league racing levels, without having to spend major league (enhanced) dollars....

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Some things to consider about the "harder to win with a slower car" and "more sensitive to . . . " observations: First, in this era of technology (weather stations, ET predicting software, etc.), there is the possibility of better tools to help with the dialing of those cars. It may be that the current products have some built in limitations that make them not as applicable as they could be, but the possibility for more accurate analysis is available. Secondly, there are a gazillion late model high-tech small engined cars out there that aren't in the classification guide. Now NHRA is not going to voluntarily put out the effort to get them listed, but somebody could do all the legwork. Granted most are FWD, but NHRA could also respond to increased participation with expanding the coverage of those classes again. The fields are ripe for a new definition of "Jr Stock". Considering the potential of some of those combinations, the ability to have a car with little modification that would be competitive is certainly possible. Thirdly, if half the effort had been put into the accumulation of knowledge and technique of racing slower, mostly environment-sensitive cars as has been put into racing big power cars, the ability to step into a competitive and winning slower car would be easier and more attractive. That can be overcome and is a mission for somebody.

Another nickel on the soapbox.

Again well said Dwight, the way I see it, if Jody Lang can do it, then anybody can do it, as long as they're willing & able to apply theirselves to what they're racing like he has for so many years...Jody's winning to day (even in spite of the DP's and the CJ's), with the same Malibu wagon he won the '98 & '99 Mopar Mile High's with. Every time Jody wins (especially against those cars that are 3sec.'s quicker than his), then I know that I can do it too, so I know it can be done...other fwd and slower roller racers have one numerous elimination heats against the faster cars as well, so as far as I'm concerned the equipment is here. Although NHRA has allowed the faster cars things to help make them faster like wheelie bars, and different valves/springs, and other engine components that weren't legal in Stock 30yrs ago, they haven't been so liberal with the fwd cars (like giving FI cars like mine an option to replace their factory systems, with earlier production carbureted induction systems, to possibly improve their cars ability to be more competitive w/o the expensive FI systems). Why not NHRA? You guys want to know why I've been so much of an advocate of IHRA this year, that's one of the biggest reasons why...they make it easier for the faster cars to be even faster, but they haven't offered options to us slower roller (and especially fwd) racers to help make our cars quicker and more competitive too...what's fair about that???

Dwight, I could only hope that racers interested in some newer (against the norm combos), will get their oem stats and send them to NHRA just like I did, because prior to my desire to get my car to be a stocker, it wasn't in the classification guide either. The Late Great Founder of NHRA "Wally Parks", was the proponent of fwd racing in Stock Eliminator. He's sadly gone, and it's beginning to show with how the fwd & all class racers are being treated...NHRA didn't need to go to such extremes with class consolidation, but carbureted racers are paying for it when racing FI cars, and fwd's didn't need to go from 16, down to 5...8 would've been a sacrifice too, but it would've made more sense!

To whoever (in another thread earlier this year) said NHRA reads these posts, I hope you're right, because I want them to know how I feel about their apparent lack of caring for us sportsman class racers who want to compete at the national/divisional events they offer, but every year it seems that they're showing that they don't give a damn about us...adding these new sportsman classes (that aren't rules restricted), raising our competition costs, not talking to ESPN about getting shows like "Inside Drag Racing" back (thus allowing our cars to be seen again like they used to be 5yrs ago), yet claiming to support sportsman racing...words are one thing, but actions are something else, and those actions aren't very supportive IMHO!!!

Finally, if NHRA really cares about us sportsman racers, then they should reduce our competiton costs...our purse sizes (with contingencies included), are down so the entry fees, and registration costs should be down too...especially until America gets back to work again...that sounds fair to me!

My .02 x's 2!

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

I think, in a nut shell that the upper classes are filled with people who can afford it. The middle by people who are doing what they can to be as fast as they can. The lower classes by low buck or entry level people. I realise this is a generalisation, but in most cases it fits.
That being said, I really enjoy slower/oddball/different combo's, moreso than the A-E/S.
I enjoy watching the big wheelstands from the older ponycars/musclecars, but other than that my heart is with the R or T and down Stockers.

So why is there less slower cars? Sure they might be less competetive or less likely to win, but that has always been the case. Less performance parts? Sure but again that's not new. So what is it? I would say the upper classes can still afford it, period. The middle classes are running less but can still scrape by with less update/upgrades. The lower classes, who could only scrape together the bucks to run when they can with what they can, just can't afford it in these times.
Any "enhancement" that cost $$$ can be absorbed by the big bucks guys (who coincidentily are running upper classes) but ask a lower class guy? Then it's "man I have to find another $1000 somewhere so I'll be legal again".

Maybe I'm just cheap, but I love the underdogs/lower classes.
(Was digging around in some old boxes of mags recently and found the Stock/Superstock mag with Steve Polhills interview with the Escort, excellent!)

(Oh and for the record, yes I'm tired of seeing 69 camaro's.) LOL

AMEN BROTHER, to borrow from HULK HOGAN....