Ford First "Stocker" Into The Eights

[goinbroke2]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

David, That started with the collusion between NHRA, Ford, and Chrysler that turned Stock Eliminator into something it has never been in it's 50 some odd year history.
Bruce Noland and a few others pointed this out to you 3-4 years ago.
GM is now just playing by the current rules.

I suppose I should congratulate Don Fezel here, for undoing some of the ridiculousness.

Hold on Mark, now the issue is, ford and chrysler "made" nhra make a bogus rule but gm is only "following along" so they get a bye?? Really? If gm was the first to build a new car and then ford and mopar joined...you and all the others would be all over gm and let the other two slide??? Yeah, I didn't think so.

As long as the rules benefit gm (drag or stockcar or anything else) the "majority" of racers are happy. As soon as the vaunted chevy is unseated all hell breaks loose. I do remember all the pissing and moaning about hemi's this and that until they got their own class...and then THAT was an issue because mopar was being "favoured".

There are too many tangents with this argument and they all continually get mashed together which then turns into a fordbash/moparbash/new carbash/etc.
Nitro can tell us exactly how many heads up runs between new/old if he wants as well as who won/lost.

So, is the bogus factors the issue?
or, factories building the cars?
or, rich people "buying" a perceived winning racecar?
or, ahfs is too slow?
or, time shouldn't march on?
or, I'm pissy cause I haven't won a race in forever?
or,.........

Like was mentioned before, what did the flathead guys say when the sbc showed up? What did the "hotrodders" who did ALL their work in their own garage say when a brand new 409 rolled up to the line? Or a hemi, or a thunderbolt or whatever. My point is, there has been REMARKABLE advances in a short period of time, many times. It sucks to be on the losing side.

Personally, are the hp too soft on some newer stuff? It would appear to me, yes. Is there a mechanism in place to rectify it? Yes. Will it be instant or as quick as some would like? no.
Hell, pick any turbo car and tell me you can't blast the index by turning up the pressure!

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Charley Downing

You could buy both cars from dealers.

Captain where is the difference in these two cars? Both are in the guide and NHRA approved

CB, If you don't know the answer to that one, maybe ask your Dad?

As my buddy up in the Bay Area says " Some get it...and some don't "

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

Hold on Mark, now the issue is, ford and chrysler "made" nhra make a bogus rule but gm is only "following along" so they get a bye?? Really? If gm was the first to build a new car and then ford and mopar joined...you and all the others would be all over gm and let the other two slide??? Yeah, I didn't think so.

As long as the rules benefit gm (drag or stockcar or anything else) the "majority" of racers are happy. As soon as the vaunted chevy is unseated all hell breaks loose. I do remember all the pissing and moaning about hemi's this and that until they got their own class...and then THAT was an issue because mopar was being "favoured".

There are too many tangents with this argument and they all continually get mashed together which then turns into a fordbash/moparbash/new carbash/etc.
Nitro can tell us exactly how many heads up runs between new/old if he wants as well as who won/lost.

So, is the bogus factors the issue?
or, factories building the cars?
or, rich people "buying" a perceived winning racecar?
or, ahfs is too slow?
or, time shouldn't march on?
or, I'm pissy cause I haven't won a race in forever?
or,.........

Like was mentioned before, what did the flathead guys say when the sbc showed up? What did the "hotrodders" who did ALL their work in their own garage say when a brand new 409 rolled up to the line? Or a hemi, or a thunderbolt or whatever. My point is, there has been REMARKABLE advances in a short period of time, many times. It sucks to be on the losing side.

Personally, are the hp too soft on some newer stuff? It would appear to me, yes. Is there a mechanism in place to rectify it? Yes. Will it be instant or as quick as some would like? no.
Hell, pick any turbo car and tell me you can't blast the index by turning up the pressure!

Dude, this is not about rooting for Ford ,or any other brand for that matter..
Apparently ,you don't get it either..

[Dan Bennett]

I'm not sure why I'm even sticking my nose into this thing, but here are some comments from someone who's been a fan of class cars since the early 60s and has watched thousands of passes through the years.

No one gets ahead when we break down into the "your brand sucks" wars. And bringing up previous errors doesn't make the current situation more acceptable in any way. Wrong is wrong and no one wants to see affirmative action in drag racing for the sins of the past.

The new cars are killer combinations, but I think a lot of people are forgetting the fact that the street versions are very, very quick even in factory trim. Put up a showroom stock LS6 Chevelle against a new SS Camaro and count the seconds between the cars crossing the finish line. Yes, seconds. So it's not surprising that the race versions are quicker, too.

I mention all this because I think the new cars absoutely need to be there on the racetracks - BUT...

If they're going to race in Stock, they should have real VIN numbers and be available from any dealer selling the brand. As for the "bogus" parts, that's nothing new. AMC put part numbers on Edelbrock manifolds back in the day and the headers you'd get in the trunk of a 69 Z28 were made by Kustom as I remember. So let the manufacturers put part numbers on aftermarket parts WITHIN THE RULES OF STOCK and if they have to ship them in the trunk, then so be it.

NHRA played cute with the factors on the new stuff. I can't see how anyone could disagree with that. And they're being dishonest if they say the current system will take care of any inequity. The AFHS was designed to take care of small differences in the factor and the real world. It was NOT designed to take care of a grossly underrated combination.

I've raced various brands and owned even more. But I refuse to get into the GM vs Ford vs Mopar silliness because all of them have built cool cars over the years. The membership pays NHRA to provide a safe place to race along with creating rules to keep things somewhat fair. Glendora chose not to in this case. Unfortunately. off the top of my head I can't remember very many times when they admitted a mistake was made and rectified the situation.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

Hold on Mark, now the issue is, ford and chrysler "made" nhra make a bogus rule but gm is only "following along" so they get a bye?? Really? If gm was the first to build a new car and then ford and mopar joined...you and all the others would be all over gm and let the other two slide??? Yeah, I didn't think so.

As long as the rules benefit gm (drag or stockcar or anything else) the "majority" of racers are happy. As soon as the vaunted chevy is unseated all hell breaks loose. I do remember all the pissing and moaning about hemi's this and that until they got their own class...and then THAT was an issue because mopar was being "favoured".

There are too many tangents with this argument and they all continually get mashed together which then turns into a fordbash/moparbash/new carbash/etc.
Nitro can tell us exactly how many heads up runs between new/old if he wants as well as who won/lost.

So, is the bogus factors the issue?
or, factories building the cars?
or, rich people "buying" a perceived winning racecar?
or, ahfs is too slow?
or, time shouldn't march on?
or, I'm pissy cause I haven't won a race in forever?
or,.........

Like was mentioned before, what did the flathead guys say when the sbc showed up? What did the "hotrodders" who did ALL their work in their own garage say when a brand new 409 rolled up to the line? Or a hemi, or a thunderbolt or whatever. My point is, there has been REMARKABLE advances in a short period of time, many times. It sucks to be on the losing side.

Personally, are the hp too soft on some newer stuff? It would appear to me, yes. Is there a mechanism in place to rectify it? Yes. Will it be instant or as quick as some would like? no.
Hell, pick any turbo car and tell me you can't blast the index by turning up the pressure!

I believe psychologists and psychiatrists call this "projection".

In other words, you accuse Mark of playing favorites toward GM, while you evidently seem to think this is all "fine and dandy" because it "knocks Chevy off the top of the hill".

It was the Hemi guys who got the 67 L-88 tossed, not the other way around. Then the Hemi Super Stock cars got their own class. As an interesting aside, those factory Hemi race cars went where when they came to NHRA? Yeah, that would be straight to Super Stock, where they belonged.

Funny people keep asking "how did the flat head guys feel when the small block Chevy was introduced". Exactly what does this have to do with Stock Eliminator? First, there would have to have been a "Stock Eliminator" in 1955, and there was not. Then the 55 Chevy 265 would have to have come in factored at around 75HP, while the flathead was factored at around 125HP. But then, that never happened, either. Really, there's no similarity between the entry of the small block during the era of the flathead, and the introduction of factory race cars to Stock Eliminator.

The next thing everyone wants to bring up is the 98 F-body LT-1. Well, my 98 Firebird has an owner's manual that actually has the LT-1 data in it, so at least GM intended to produce a street legal 98 F-body LT-1 car. Further, you can make a 98 Firebird out of a 97 with a front clip change. Once the low introductory factors of the LT-1 and other cars became a problem for existing cars in the class, they got their own classes until they were brought in line with the existing cars. This still has not happened with the new factory race cars, and it isn't likely to happen.

Oh, and as it stands, the three new Camaro combinations are 550HP, 500HP, and 425HP, before they've ever competed. Hardly the same as the supercharged Fords, the crate motor Fords, or the Challengers. Seems the Camaro is starting out 200HP higher than the competition started out in many cases.

You want to bust Mark's chops about brand bias, but it is pretty evident who has the biggest case of brand envy, and it isn't Mark.

[novassdude]

Alan there you go getting facts in the way.

[cutta]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

Nitro can tell us exactly how many heads up runs between new/old if he wants as well as who won/lost.
!

I would curious to see this as well. I would love to see the just how many cars have been directly affected, especially after the higher classes(AA, BB, CC) were introduced.

[tommy d]

Dead Horse!!!! thump,thump,thump!

[Jeff Teuton]

Way dead. Quite dead. This should only be served over a burger and a few beers on the side of the trailer at a race, with a minimum of beers to get into the argument.

[C and W Racing]

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton

Way dead. Quite dead. This should only be served over a burger and a few beers on the side of the trailer at a race, with a minimum of beers to get into the argument.

Jeff, what do you mean with a burger. Everyone know's you serve cheese with that wine. lol
Chuck