Locking 'Em Up

Jeff Stout · 12-11-2019, 02:10 PM

Best package competes against all racers each time and not just the racer in the other lane. So basically we're are racing best package.

Lenny5160 · 12-11-2019, 04:39 PM

What if you get a big random gust of wind during your run? It impacts both you and the guy in the other lane, but not the people that run in the other pairs.

Dialing is a skill, but there are so many more variables out of your control than there are on the starting line. That's why driving skill is so important. I wouldn't be interested in a race where it isn't a factor.

Jeff Stout · 12-12-2019, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny5160

What if you get a big random gust of wind during your run? It impacts both you and the guy in the other lane, but not the people that run in the other pairs.

Dialing is a skill, but there are so many more variables out of your control than there are on the starting line. That's why driving skill is so important. I wouldn't be interested in a race where it isn't a factor.

In today's bracket world when a gust of wind came, what would you do? It should be the same answer as best package racing. If you want to still dial soft and whack the brakes and see what your ET will be that's fine also. Just don't make smoke. I think best package racing and sliding car at finish line over time will make you a better predictor of your ET.

HawkBrosMav · 12-12-2019, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny5160

What if you get a big random gust of wind during your run? It impacts both you and the guy in the other lane, but not the people that run in the other pairs.

Dialing is a skill, but there are so many more variables out of your control than there are on the starting line. That's why driving skill is so important. I wouldn't be interested in a race where it isn't a factor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny5160

What if you get a big random gust of wind during your run? It impacts both you and the guy in the other lane, but not the people that run in the other pairs.

Dialing is a skill, but there are so many more variables out of your control than there are on the starting line. That's why driving skill is so important. I wouldn't be interested in a race where it isn't a factor.

Lenny this happens now.. I don't see how this is any different. You dial on your pass the best you can.. you may have a strategy that you don't "dial hard" and hope the other guy runs his race in a manner that you can lift in relation to him and stay over.. or he may run under more than you depending on the circumstances.. but you're guessing your dial based on the conditions at the last possible moment you are allowed to change dials. Only difference would be you have to guess for your conditions better than half the field did on their conditions not just the guy in the other lane. We all race with sometime similar conditions the entire round to drastically different, but we still have to get our dial close for our single pass.

With the current state of Stock Eliminator you could have a pair dialed about 8.00 all the way to like 16.00 (rounding for ease of illustration).. that means the slower guy has 8 seconds of track time where said gust of wind could come up and affect him where the fast guy is sitting stationary. With your argument the slow guy isn't getting a fair shot..

again I wouldn't want this racing to become the norm by any means but to look down upon the idea because it's different and not what we do is ignoring how similar it already is to what were doing.. I mean you could even make it more similar to what we do and just run a heads up start with a staggered finish with all other rules remaining the same as we have them now. 2 stage one comes back then literally the only difference is the heads up start vs staggered start.. eliminates the finish line games while keeping the race most similar to what we have now. I'm open to a few races a year in one of these formats but not this changing the norm..

Brad

Lenny5160 · 12-13-2019, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkBrosMav

Lenny this happens now.. I don't see how this is any different.

I see it as very different. In the typical 1-on-1 scenario, my opponent and I need to deal with the exact same conditions. The next pair may have their own unique challenges to deal with, but they both have the same challenges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkBrosMav

With the current state of Stock Eliminator you could have a pair dialed about 8.00 all the way to like 16.00 (rounding for ease of illustration).. that means the slower guy has 8 seconds of track time where said gust of wind could come up and affect him where the fast guy is sitting stationary. With your argument the slow guy isn't getting a fair shot..

I wouldn't say what's happening to the slow guy there is unfair, but there is no doubt he made things more difficult for himself with his choice of combination.

That isn't to say that slow cars can't have success, and I like to see it.

Anyway, the whole fun of racing (for me) is what's happening going down the track in an elimination run. How did I feel on the tree? Everything feels/sounds good with the car? Where's he at? How's he coming? Where's the finish line? Is he going to get inside my window? Where's the finish line? If hitting the brakes is the move, where is my braking point?

That might all be in 4.6 seconds. Good stuff!

Hitting the tree and then holding my foot to the floor while praying I did my figures correctly just doesn't compare.

The shootouts for Super-class cars at divisionals is fun. See if you can be one of the top-8 on the index in a time run. It's a fun sideshow as long as we're making time runs anyway. Actually racing that way would take away far too much of the experience, for me. My opinion only, and worth what you paid for it.

HawkBrosMav · 12-13-2019, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny5160

I see it as very different. In the typical 1-on-1 scenario, my opponent and I need to deal with the exact same conditions. The next pair may have their own unique challenges to deal with, but they both have the same challenges.

I wouldn't say what's happening to the slow guy there is unfair, but there is no doubt he made things more difficult for himself with his choice of combination.

That isn't to say that slow cars can't have success, and I like to see it.

Anyway, the whole fun of racing (for me) is what's happening going down the track in an elimination run. How did I feel on the tree? Everything feels/sounds good with the car? Where's he at? How's he coming? Where's the finish line? Is he going to get inside my window? Where's the finish line? If hitting the brakes is the move, where is my braking point?

That might all be in 4.6 seconds. Good stuff!

Hitting the tree and then holding my foot to the floor while praying I did my figures correctly just doesn't compare.

The shootouts for Super-class cars at divisionals is fun. See if you can be one of the top-8 on the index in a time run. It's a fun sideshow as long as we're making time runs anyway. Actually racing that way would take away far too much of the experience, for me. My opinion only, and worth what you paid for it.

I agree with you and that's why on almost every post I've stated I wouldn't want this to be the norm at all..

I just feel like as far as a competition weather you run back package out of X number of runs, best packages of the top half of each round or best back with a heads up start and staggered finish with the 1v1 style still they are no less competitive.. they are just different. And different in a way that it wouldn't take any less driving skill to win than our current format. They're simply a different format.

Heads up racing to me takes less driver skill and more tuner skill or more money.. simple as that.. it's fun in a class like S/SS because we have some major restrictions as to what is allowed and a relatively accurate way to categorize the varying combos into similar indexes.. but heads up unlimited classes typically the richest guy wins.. not always but typically.. this would be less fun to me.

Lenny5160 · 12-13-2019, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkBrosMav

I just feel like as far as a competition weather you run back package out of X number of runs, best packages of the top half of each round or best back with a heads up start and staggered finish with the 1v1 style still they are no less competitive.. they are just different. And different in a way that it wouldn't take any less driving skill to win than our current format.

Can you expand your thoughts on that bold part a little bit? I don't see how driving skill (as I think of driving skill) can be utilized whatsoever if there isn't an opponent to reference at the finish line.

HawkBrosMav · 12-13-2019, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny5160

Can you expand your thoughts on that bold part a little bit? I don't see how driving skill (as I think of driving skill) can be utilized whatsoever if there isn't an opponent to reference at the finish line.

Things required to having driving skill:
1. Know how to start the car and make it move forward, backwards, and stop.
2. know how to do a burnout (without a 3-step)
3. Know how to stage... the same every single pass.
4. know how to consistently catch a good RT.
5. know how to shift car at correct shift points every pass without a shift assist.
6. Judge your position on the race track in comparison to the other car ***this skill doesn't actually need to be mastered to win a race***
7. Be able to decipher a time slip to accurately predict what the car will be doing from pass to pass and pick the right dial in.

So out of 7 fairly basic skills you need to be successful in Bracket Style racing the only one you don't actually need to be good at would be eliminated from the picture if you had a heads up start vs staggered..

If you can be good at that one skill you can increase the number of strategies available to you for any particular pairing. This may seem like it means you "have more skill," but now you've also increased the amount of ways you can find to lose that same said race..

It doesn't actually increase your chances of winning.. I could be just as successful in our sport never paying a single mind to you in the other lane if I can master going .000 on the tree and dialing the car correctly.. We've convinced ourselves that all these other strategies are the correct way to race, but in the end the only goal we have is to have a .000 total package.. the only reason the other strategies work so often is that MANY MANY racers actually suck at this sport.. they're happy when they have a .030 light and can run .01 off their dial.. a .040 package isn't very good. The reason we equate driver skill to finish line driving is because ALL the very successful racers do it.. it's a causation vs correlation thing.. "because the win all the time and don't dial hard and can run the finish line well that must make the definition of a good driver." I'd be just as impressed with you if you could go lay down a .010 pack every pass ignoring the car in the other lane.. and you'd win a hell of a lot of races..

Rick Schilling · 12-13-2019, 11:51 AM

One of the things that is making this discussion difficult (regarding best packages) is the question... Are winners and losers determined by individual matchups, by the round, or for the entire event (as suggested earlier)?

HawkBrosMav · 12-13-2019, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Schilling

One of the things that is making this discussion difficult (regarding best packages) is the question... Are winners and losers determined by individual matchups, by the round, or for the entire event (as suggested earlier)?

Rick I think any of these formats are possible with heads up package racing.. with our current staggered starts we could also you the same 3 formats we just don't. A lot of big $$ races use some form of the best package stuff as a "run for the money" bonus side show.. would be interesting to run an entire event this way once in a while

12-11-2019, 02:10 PM	#1
Jeff Stout VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: phoenix Posts: 1,489 Likes: 66 Liked 706 Times in 283 Posts	Re: Locking 'Em Up Best package competes against all racers each time and not just the racer in the other lane. So basically we're are racing best package.

12-11-2019, 04:39 PM	#2
Lenny5160 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN Posts: 898 Likes: 604 Liked 431 Times in 224 Posts	Re: Locking 'Em Up What if you get a big random gust of wind during your run? It impacts both you and the guy in the other lane, but not the people that run in the other pairs. Dialing is a skill, but there are so many more variables out of your control than there are on the starting line. That's why driving skill is so important. I wouldn't be interested in a race where it isn't a factor. __________________ S/ST 51 S/C 53

12-13-2019, 11:51 AM	#9
Rick Schilling Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Indy Posts: 103 Likes: 18 Liked 14 Times in 10 Posts	Re: Locking 'Em Up One of the things that is making this discussion difficult (regarding best packages) is the question... Are winners and losers determined by individual matchups, by the round, or for the entire event (as suggested earlier)?