Approval of Super Stock Class Aftermarket Cylinder Heads

[bubski]

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

This posting is to allow some rational and logical discussion on the use of, and the market availability of aluminum aftermarket cylinder heads for the Super Stock class. I would also like to ask to please refrain the personal attacks and non-sense arguments in the discussion.

On this subject, I do not have a vested interest either. I have been asked by several race engine builders and cylinder head shops to assist them in getting an aftermarket aluminum cylinder head approved by NHRA for Super Stock class use only!

As we all are aware, NHRA has approved several makes of both cast iron and aluminum for use in the classes. However, with the acquisition of aftermarket and racing product companies by conglomerates, they have changed the business model from hard-core racing to bringing out products for late-model vehicles only. Edelbrock was for some time, the main supplier of cylinder heads and intake manifolds for the class. Another example is the Edelbrock SBC Victor “E” intake manifold which has been discontinued also.

However, after being acquired by a group of investors, the bean counters changed the business model, with emphasis on the Chevy LS/LT, Ford Coyote, and Mopar Hemi platforms. I confirmed this at last year’s PRI Show in a conversation with Edelbrock’s Program Manager Director for the cylinder head product line. Nevertheless, every time someone calls the NHRA Glendora office, they hear the same story…Edelbrock will have cylinder heads available next month and has been stating the same narrative since last year. The truth is that my job requires me to travel to Olive Branch, Mississippi twice a month and my employer owns a distribution center a few miles away from Edelbrock. Each and every time I stop to ask about their status, they do not have an idea because it is not in their schedule. When I confronted Glendora on the subject, they did not have an answer.

Last year I submitted several aluminum cylinder head options from various manufacturers that could have easily met the requirements for a Super Stock cylinder head and all were rejected for one reason or another. The rationalizing for the rejection from a technical standpoint did not make sense either. Their narrative did not even concur with what they believed they had approved. As an example, they claimed the Edelbrock SBC-approved cylinder head casting has a 170cc intake volume when in reality, it is 180cc. Moreover, the Performer RPM casting that the cylinder head casting is based on, the intake to exhaust valve centerline spacing is wider and does not match the OEM spacing. The reason for the wider spacing is for allowing bigger valves. As a matter of fact, when you order custom pistons for your Super Stock SBC, make sure to let them know you are using the Edelbrock cylinder heads so they can machine the valve notches to the proper location.

My last effort was to submit the SBC Profiler 176-X-CORE, Porter's cylinder head casting for approval. Technically, this would have been an ideal cylinder head casting for Chevy Small Block racers due to the fact the ports are small, allowing the development of an intake or exhaust port that would not require welding and/or epoxy. Also, no pushrod holes and the valve seat and throat are small enough that would not require welding for the installation of small seats for smaller valves. The cylinder head also has the OEM intake to exhaust valve centerline spacing. The elimination of extensive welding of the cylinder head, having the welded casting treated, and not worrying about distortion, is also a money saver. The casting price is also way lower than the Edelbrock, available and made in the USA.

After much effort, including submitting technical data and a sample of the cylinder head, NHRA also rejected the Profiler cylinder head. They also said that SRAC also rejected the cylinder head, which I would like to know in this open forum if they did or not, and their reasoning.

For those that may say that this would have been only good for the Chevy racers if this cylinder head casting would have been approved, Profiler would have been eager to have castings also available for other engine makes also. Having a “Porter’s” casting is cost-effective for a manufacturer since they do not need to install seats, guides, or drill pushrod holes.

This said, the parts availability issue is worrisome and will get worse.
Either NHRA wants racers to build late-model cars or electric cars, or the class to disappear.

Bubski is like OMG!! This is SUPER STOCK !! NOT BRACKET 2 !! There's plenty of heads out there !! Bubski probably got almost any Chevy and FFFord head and is in touch with many people that have almost every head from every manufacturer !! Nice !! no pushrod holes !! Super thick ,raw chambers !! Do whatever you want ?? with the entire head while the true SS RACER and BUILDER has to deal with what they came with !! THATS WHY IT'S CALLED SS !! Bubski believes this NONSENSE is outta control and the WHINING has to stop !! TOO BAD castings aren't cheap anymore !! Northing is !! A new Super Profiler SBC casting has to cost 5 xxx's as much as a core you can get on Craigslist !! All this watering down of the Classes and Rules to suit some individual agenda is total BS !! GO ENJOY A BUD LITE !! CHEERS !!

[Jeff Niceswanger]

I went through this. Dave Layer and I researched several heads to a replacement of the famous water leakers of the 083 SBC. They are still impossible to find as the 87-92 IROC and Formula engines they came on are not normally separated from the short block at the junkers/rebuilders. It's too valuable a combo for Rodders and Street Enthusiast. The moral of the story back then was if you owned a 350 cu in 87-92 Camaro/Firebird Iroc or Formula and wanted to run Superstock (and not GT) go buy another car. No heads were available, and if you're lucky to find a set,,,,their junk. So we looked at some GM aftermarket castings.... Dart, World's, even Brodex. The 170cc Dart Super Stock castings was a replacement head made for replacing a head on a street driven L-98. so we went with them.Dave was sending letters to Bruce and I had everybody I know writing letters asking/pleading for this head.Bruce was showing some interest so I drove a new 170 cc Dart 070 casting example (stock,non machined) over to Indianapolis for him to evaluate. BTW, Aluminum was out of the question. Just too many folks pushing back on that. We ending up getting approval and I believe like you it was to be a Superstock only option. Dave had a couple other customers in line to get them so I did not get in on the first batch. He made four sets and almost instantly 3 of them leaked. Heck they were as bad as the 083's.I remember the day when Dave had to call Bruce and tell him the results. Bruce was kind of "having enough of it" and ask Dave "Just exactly what are you suggesting". so the process started again . The second set, the 180cc Dart 010 Iron Eagle head that everybody uses in the cast iron version of the L-98 was the second attempt. The first set is still in the guide, but no one use these things in SS. Just too thin. Now we can't get the 010 Darts either! Good Luck, Our ace in the hole and very knowledgeable Bruce retired many moons ago.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Jeff Niceswanger

I went through this. Dave Layer and I researched several heads to a replacement of the famous water leakers of the 083 SBC. They are still impossible to find as the 87-92 IROC and Formula engines they came on are not normally separated from the short block at the junkers/rebuilders. It's too valuable a combo for Rodders and Street Enthusiast. The moral of the story back then was if you owned a 350 cu in 87-92 Camaro/Firebird Iroc or Formula and wanted to run Superstock (and not GT) go buy another car. No heads were available, and if you're lucky to find a set,,,,their junk. So we looked at some GM aftermarket castings.... Dart, World's, even Brodex. The 170cc Dart Super Stock castings was a replacement head made for replacing a head on a street driven L-98. so we went with them.Dave was sending letters to Bruce and I had everybody I know writing letters asking/pleading for this head.Bruce was showing some interest so I drove a new 170 cc Dart 070 casting example (stock,non machined) over to Indianapolis for him to evaluate. BTW, Aluminum was out of the question. Just too many folks pushing back on that. We ending up getting approval and I believe like you it was to be a Superstock only option. Dave had a couple other customers in line to get them so I did not get in on the first batch. He made four sets and almost instantly 3 of them leaked. Heck they were as bad as the 083's.I remember the day when Dave had to call Bruce and tell him the results. Bruce was kind of "having enough of it" and ask Dave "Just exactly what are you suggesting". so the process started again . The second set, the 180cc Dart 010 Iron Eagle head that everybody uses in the cast iron version of the L-98 was the second attempt. The first set is still in the guide, but no one use these things in SS. Just too thin. Now we can't get the 010 Darts either! Good Luck, Our ace in the hole and very knowledgeable Bruce retired many moons ago.

Hi Jeff,
The proposed Profiler casting also allows for both center or perimeter valve covers if NHRA wants the visuals.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by bubski

Bubski is like OMG!! This is SUPER STOCK !! NOT BRACKET 2 !! There's plenty of heads out there !! Bubski probably got almost any Chevy and FFFord head and is in touch with many people that have almost every head from every manufacturer !! Nice !! no pushrod holes !! Super thick ,raw chambers !! Do whatever you want ?? with the entire head while the true SS RACER and BUILDER has to deal with what they came with !! THATS WHY IT'S CALLED SS !! Bubski believes this NONSENSE is outta control and the WHINING has to stop !! TOO BAD castings aren't cheap anymore !! Northing is !! A new Super Profiler SBC casting has to cost 5 xxx's as much as a core you can get on Craigslist !! All this watering down of the Classes and Rules to suit some individual agenda is total BS !! GO ENJOY A BUD LITE !! CHEERS !!

Of course, I knew you would be the first one to respond with idiotic statements as usual!

1. None of the NHRA approved aftermarket castings are available. If they are, post where they can be purchased.
   Difficult to find good OEM cores anymore and when you find them, they are worth as much as an aftermarket core.
2. The proposed Profiler cylinder head has a finished chamber, not an unfinished chamber.
3. Opening and moving the pushrod holes is a standard machine operation for Super Stock cylinder heads.

As always, you are clueless and just posting to stir the pot with no facts. Just go to your basement to your keyboard jockey role!

[bubski]

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

Of course, I knew you would be the first one to respond with idiotic statements as usual!

1. None of the NHRA approved aftermarket castings are available. If they are, post where they can be purchased.
   Difficult to find good OEM cores anymore and when you find them, they are worth as much as an aftermarket core.
2. The proposed Profiler cylinder head has a finished chamber, not an unfinished chamber.
3. Opening and moving the pushrod holes is a standard machine operation for Super Stock cylinder heads.

As always, you are clueless and just posting to stir the pot with no facts. Just go to your basement to your keyboard jockey role!

Bubski says as per your post !! 1 Too bad u can't buy aftermarket heads from Jegs and build a SS engine !! 2 OMG !! it has a "finished " chamber !! 3 !! Opening up and moving pushrod holes is not the same as starting with a head that doesn't have them already !! Ask any Mopar or Chevy PORTER that has to work around the core shift between right and left intake ports !! ALL these heads you propose as unavailable are all over the internet !! Much cheaper than a new casting !! BUT you want "cheaper" What Bubski is saying is that you want an advantage !! PLEZZE HAVE ANOTHER BUD LIGHT !!

[SpeierRacing]

So let me get this straight... All the work you have to do to the OEM casting, brazing, seats, guides, epoxy, is cheaper than a core that doesn't require that? Not only that it's not IF, but WHEN they crack...

And to be honest, the Edelbrock requires the same amount of labor. They need LOTS of work.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by bubski

Bubski says as per your post !! 1 Too bad u can't buy aftermarket heads from Jegs and build a SS engine !! 2 OMG !! it has a "finished " chamber !! 3 !! Opening up and moving pushrod holes is not the same as starting with a head that doesn't have them already !! Ask any Mopar or Chevy PORTER that has to work around the core shift between right and left intake ports !! ALL these heads you propose as unavailable are all over the internet !! Much cheaper than a new casting !! BUT you want "cheaper" What Bubski is saying is that you want an advantage !! PLEZZE HAVE ANOTHER BUD LIGHT !!

Back off the pipe or you are clueless like all your prior postings.
If you can find a set of Edelbrock P/N 60887 or 60637 cylinder heads, post the links or where to get them. I know of a well-known engine builder that has 30 Edelbrock castings on order for over a year.
Not wasting any more of my time responding to your dumb and idiotic comments.

[bubski]

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

Back off the pipe or you are clueless like all your prior postings.
If you can find a set of Edelbrock P/N 60887 or 60637 cylinder heads, post the links or where to get them. I know of a well-known engine builder that has 30 Edelbrock castings on order for over a year.
Not wasting any more of my time responding to your dumb and idiotic comments.

Bubski says !! OMG talk about clueless !!! So what if an obscure aftermarket head for a SBC isn't available !! Try a factory one like everybody else !! Oh no they leak , they're thin ,they don't flow good etc etc !! Sometimes you gotta look at the combo you wish to build and determine if its a viable choice !! not just the HORSE POWER WELFARE that comes with it !! Not all heads can be heated to 1000 degrees and ground on mercilessly and remain usable !! just like not all blocks can go .080 over and maintain a ring seal !! Its all about determining if that combo is viable !! How about all the Motorcraft , WCFB ,and 4 Jet guys get a 4150 Holley carb cause those carbs aint good enough today ?? This is all about YOUR LIBERAL AGENDA to further take SS into bracket 2 and make it easier on yourself !! Everyone wants a clean sheet of paper head to CNC machine because the factory heads are tough with all the inconsistencies they are plagued with !! And nobody wants to hand grind anymore !! Too Bad !! You wanna do SS heads that's just the way it is !! While your at it go after Stocker intakes !! Im sure the nice people in China have you covered !! cause you can't find a real one !! But they have a hi-rise air gap manifold for everything out there !! What this all boils down to is an agenda to make things easier for a few and much harder for most !! Bubski's thinking !! Of course the minority will win !! That's just the way it is nowadays !! Bubski is growing tired of this IDIOTIC thread and gotta get back to the 85b to chop off some intake flanges to make CC !! SS needs more enhancements and welfare like America needs more invaders crossing our borders !! Go have a Bud Lite !! CHEERS !!

[Don Sofranko]

Man, I remember when it was straight up mansville to use your real name, along with a good argument...

Please be more like the great engine builders of class racer, like Westcott and a few others that don't use hidden names.
I have no idea who the 2 main posters here are?

SSdiv6 is unknown after what... 40 years?

Bubski is likely a Ford guy of sorts, from what I can tell?

You both make fun points at times, but really, man up and use your name, when asking for rules changes, so we can see your personal agenda.

As for heads, race modified if you want fresh meat heads.
Pretty sure its near billet over there?

Many thanks to Jeff N. for spilling his guts, on what that leaky combo he ran was like, but you said it best, they leak.

I haven't entered a race in 20 years now, and its stay and puke cash, or get a hobby that doesn't need revised every week!

ex SSdiv5
Don

[SBillinson]

Originally Posted by Don Sofranko

Man, I remember when it was straight up mansville to use your real name, along with a good argument...

Please be more like the great engine builders of class racer, like Westcott and a few others that don't use hidden names.
I have no idea who the 2 main posters here are?

SSdiv6 is unknown after what... 40 years?

Bubski is likely a Ford guy of sorts, from what I can tell?

You both make fun points at times, but really, man up and use your name, when asking for rules changes, so we can see your personal agenda.

As for heads, race modified if you want fresh meat heads.
Pretty sure its near billet over there?

Many thanks to Jeff N. for spilling his guts, on what that leaky combo he ran was like, but you said it best, they leak.

I haven't entered a race in 20 years now, and its stay and puke cash, or get a hobby that doesn't need revised every week!

ex SSdiv5
Don

SSDiv6 is known to many on this board. He's a very good, decent man who's been involved in class racing for long time. He's also smart and accomplished, so I'm sure he has a good reason for concealing his name.

As for the other guy? Nobody seems to know him.